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The Clubhouse Bar
A Political Thread pt. 2
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<blockquote data-quote="Welsh Exile" data-source="post: 1181698" data-attributes="member: 82670"><p>If it's true that their end game is Gaza (and I wouldn't rule it out) then how sad that is as it shows even with what little progress that has been made over the last 20 years or so, is just regressing at a severe rate and this plays right into the hands of Hamas and Netenyahu.</p><p></p><p>I have no time for Netenyahu, but Isreal pulling out of Gaza in 2005 shows that, imo, most people in Isreal, at its core, just want to be left in peace and can live next to a neighbouring Arab state. You can see this not just in 2005 when they pulled out of Gaza but also with Camp David and even before at its inception in 48 with the UN partition plan. I think initially they were even happy to have an Arab minority of 40% living within Israel which was refused. There's only one side that consistently refuse deals/come to the table and it's historically it's not been Isreal. You could say why should Palestinians/Hamas move from their 1 state objective but it's not realistic at all.</p><p></p><p>I listened to (half listened to) a 4 hour plus debate with a Jewish historian called Benny Morris and Norm Finklestein (and a couple of others in a Lex Fridman podcast) , it was a pretty bad debate, lots of name calling but one thing i wasn't aware of (that could be untrue obviously as I have not researched it myself) was the pro Isreal side was arguing that displacing or transferring Arabs was not inbuilt into the Zionist project from the start and only really came about as a response of war and being attacked by neighbouring Arab countries. Again not sure how true that is or even how relevant that is now as I think it's hard to argue that Netenyahu isn't expansionist now which as I said at the start of my post, sad as we seem to be regressing further and further with not even a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Welsh Exile, post: 1181698, member: 82670"] If it's true that their end game is Gaza (and I wouldn't rule it out) then how sad that is as it shows even with what little progress that has been made over the last 20 years or so, is just regressing at a severe rate and this plays right into the hands of Hamas and Netenyahu. I have no time for Netenyahu, but Isreal pulling out of Gaza in 2005 shows that, imo, most people in Isreal, at its core, just want to be left in peace and can live next to a neighbouring Arab state. You can see this not just in 2005 when they pulled out of Gaza but also with Camp David and even before at its inception in 48 with the UN partition plan. I think initially they were even happy to have an Arab minority of 40% living within Israel which was refused. There's only one side that consistently refuse deals/come to the table and it's historically it's not been Isreal. You could say why should Palestinians/Hamas move from their 1 state objective but it's not realistic at all. I listened to (half listened to) a 4 hour plus debate with a Jewish historian called Benny Morris and Norm Finklestein (and a couple of others in a Lex Fridman podcast) , it was a pretty bad debate, lots of name calling but one thing i wasn't aware of (that could be untrue obviously as I have not researched it myself) was the pro Isreal side was arguing that displacing or transferring Arabs was not inbuilt into the Zionist project from the start and only really came about as a response of war and being attacked by neighbouring Arab countries. Again not sure how true that is or even how relevant that is now as I think it's hard to argue that Netenyahu isn't expansionist now which as I said at the start of my post, sad as we seem to be regressing further and further with not even a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. [/QUOTE]
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