Aussies 'stealing' NZ players

[TRF_heineken]

Brisbane - All Blacks rugby coach Steve Hansen has attacked Australian rugby for "stealing" New Zealand players and says the Bledisloe Cup rival should improve depth by developing its own talent.
Hansen spoke after his team's 18-18 draw with the Wallabies in Brisbane on Saturday in which New Zealand-born centre Mike Harris kicked five penalties for Australia.

Hansen says he doesn't begrudge Harris' decision to sign for Queensland when he was rejected by New Zealand Super 15 franchises or to later play for Australia.

But Hansen says "what I find frustrating is that Australia is trying to build their game and put more franchises in place, but all they are doing is putting franchises in place and stealing our players. They should get their own house in order and develop their own."

Am I the only one thinking that this is a little bit Hypocritical coming from NZ? I wonder what Samoa, Tonga and Fiji would say...

 

[TNT88]

How does he know that Harris doesn't consider himself an aussie just as much as a kiwi now? I know if I moved countries and their rugby program turned me into a test player, I'd soon feel very loyal and proud to be a member of that community.

At the end of the day it's a rare case, pretty much our entire team is from aussie junior clubs. And Australia is a nation of immigrants, just like NZ who have lots of diversity in their team.

For me, the eligibility laws are working when the large base of a team is from that countries juniors, and a few squad members have come into the scene at a later stage. Rugby is a global game after all...

 

[TRF_heineken]

How does he know that Harris doesn't consider himself an aussie just as much as a kiwi now? I know if I moved countries and their rugby program turned me into a test player, I'd soon feel very loyal and proud to be a member of that community.

At the end of the day it's a rare case, pretty much our entire team is from aussie junior clubs. And Australia is a nation of immigrants, just like NZ who have lots of diversity in their team.

For me, the eligibility laws are working when the large base of a team is from that countries juniors, and a few squad members have come into the scene at a later stage. Rugby is a global game after all...

agreed, and which top nation hasn't had a player originally from another nation playing for them at test level?

Hansen blaming the aussies for stealing Mike Harris, when Harris was the guy who kicked 5 penalties and helped Aus draw against NZ sounds a lot like sour grapes to me.

I think this is also a good thing now Hansen can start the winning streak from scratch and not get the record when his former boss was responsible for the first part of the streak.

 

[nickdnz]

Am I the only one thinking that this is a little bit Hypocritical coming from NZ? I wonder what Samoa, Tonga and Fiji would say...

Probably very, very little. I don't mean to have a go here - but you come off as very ignorent with these kinds of comments. In the current squad there are no players who were born in the Pacific Islands playing for the All Blacks. Further more I challenge to you name more than three players in the professional era (since players could play for multiple international teams beforehand) who weren't developed through the New Zealand rugby system - starting from school level. Samoa on the other hand had 15 New Zealand born players in their squad - all of whom came from the NZ rugby system (some players who were born in Samoa also used the NZ development system). Having brown skin doesn't exclude you from being a New Zealander - but I'm not sure what other basis you would have for your argument.

What is happening with Australia is very different - as they are recruiting out of our development system.

How does he know that Harris doesn't consider himself an aussie just as much as a kiwi now? I know if I moved countries and their rugby program turned me into a test player, I'd soon feel very loyal and proud to be a member of that community.

At the end of the day it's a rare case, pretty much our entire team is from aussie junior clubs. And Australia is a nation of immigrants, just like NZ who have lots of diversity in their team.

For me, the eligibility laws are working when the large base of a team is from that countries juniors, and a few squad members have come into the scene at a later stage. Rugby is a global game after all...

Unfortunately I disagree. Players like Pocock, Genia, Ioane, Cooper etc fine. They are immigrants but they learned most of their rugby in Australia and I'm sure are proud to be Australian. However when you have players like Henry Speight, Mike Harris, Tim Fairbrother etc being recruited with the chance to play for another international team being the incentive - I don't belive that is moral. It's taking advantage of another development system rather than investing in their own - and for the number two side in the world it's embarrasing. The point that those players wouldn't make the All Blacks is irrelavant (and I still don't rate Mike Harris), it's essentially allowing a competitor to invest in a player and then work around outbidding them. I don't believe this kind of 'professionalism' should extend to international teams. Mike Harris being allowed to play for Australia because of a grandparent...

Sadly - New Zealand is constantly being pillaged for rugby players by other teams - it's no worse than Riki Flutey or Thomas Waldrom playing for England.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

While I do disapprove of Oz stacking their SR teams with NZ players, I don't think the player in question (Mike Harris) can be faulted for playing for the Wallabies. No NZ Super Rugby team wanted him, which was stupid, so what choice does he have to head over the ditch if he wants game time? It's one thing if he's obviously an average player and isn't picked for an NZ team, but it's another thing altogether when a quality player (not fantastic) gets overlooked time and time again.

But yes, bringing PI nations into it stupid, because as mentioned, almost all of the players NZ uses are born in NZ, and raised in the NZ system.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Probably very, very little. I don't mean to have a go here - but you come off as very ignorent with these kinds of comments. In the current squad there are no players who were born in the Pacific Islands playing for the All Blacks. Further more I challenge to you name more than three players in the professional era (since players could play for multiple international teams beforehand) who weren't developed through the New Zealand rugby system - starting from school level. Samoa on the other hand had 15 New Zealand born players in their squad - all of whom came from the NZ rugby system (some players who were born in Samoa also used the NZ development system). Having brown skin doesn't exclude you from being a New Zealander - but I'm not sure what other basis you would have for your argument.

What is happening with Australia is very different - as they are recruiting out of our development system.



Unfortunately I disagree. Players like Pocock, Genia, Ioane, Cooper etc fine. They are immigrants but they learned most of their rugby in Australia and I'm sure are proud to be Australian. However when you have players like Henry Speight, Mike Harris, Tim Fairbrother etc being recruited with the chance to play for another international team being the incentive - I don't belive that is moral. It's taking advantage of another development system rather than investing in their own - and for the number two side in the world it's embarrasing. The point that those players wouldn't make the All Blacks is irrelavant (and I still don't rate Mike Harris), it's essentially allowing a competitor to invest in a player and then work around outbidding them. I don't believe this kind of 'professionalism' should extend to international teams. Mike Harris being allowed to play for Australia because of a grandparent...

Sadly - New Zealand is constantly being pillaged for rugby players by other teams - it's no worse than Riki Flutey or Thomas Waldrom playing for England.

Excuse me then for being ignorant, but you didn't read my next post.

I never said anything about NZ developed players going to Oz or other nations developing players and then Buggering off to NZ. When, In your most noble opinion does development start? age 1? 3? 6? 15? either way, this dispute or point of views are something that people might take offence of. So be it. I congratulate NZ on not having a single foreigner in their squad as that is quite an achievement, something no other top nation could say (maybe Argentina). But while I salute your patriotism, your judgement is clouded by it.

face it, your national said something stupid, and the Journo's are going to have a field day with this.

 

[peanuts40]

Further more I challenge to you name more than three players in the professional era (since players could play for multiple international teams beforehand) who weren't developed through the New Zealand rugby system - starting from school level.

Greg Rawlinson, Brad Thorn, Steve Devine and Saimone Taumoepeau

 

[racingmetrofan]

Or NZ should get their house in order and develop their talent better...

There is no such thing as player 'stealing'. The idea that all 'more NZ than anything else' rugby players will all stay in NZ and twiddle their thumbs on not much money for the whole of their careers pining for an AB cap is naive.

And he has an Aussie grandmother, so he is perfectly entitled to be Australian lol.

Just sounds bitter from Hansen and a bit pathetic.

 

[InsaneAsylum]

i'm not biting, classing Hansen trolling. he can't help himself

 

[The big Kangaroo]

You can't blame him we have a better currency, better woman (google miranda keir) and better weather

 

[peanuts40]

You can't blame him we have a better currency, better woman (google miranda keir) and better weather

ker*

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

ker*

Kerr*

 

[peanuts40]

Kerr*

Damn, thought i spelled it correctly.

Greg Rawlinson, Brad Thorn, Steve Devine and Saimone Taumoepeau

Also, these were just off the top of my head, i'm sure they are a couple more.

 

[The big Kangaroo]

Kerr*

Screw spelling it how about a picture instead

 

[nickdnz]

Excuse me then for being ignorant, but you didn't read my next post.

I never said anything about NZ developed players going to Oz or other nations developing players and then Buggering off to NZ. When, In your most noble opinion does development start? age 1? 3? 6? 15? either way, this dispute or point of views are something that people might take offence of. So be it. I congratulate NZ on not having a single foreigner in their squad as that is quite an achievement, something no other top nation could say (maybe Argentina). But while I salute your patriotism, your judgement is clouded by it.

face it, your national said something stupid, and the Journo's are going to have a field day with this.

Well, let's make it easy for you. Played rugby at ANY level before coming to New Zealand. Ben Franks is technically Australian - I said PI born player. Regardless I'm not defending Hansen, I suspect this will be one of many times he will open his mouth when it should probably have been kept shut. But he does have a very valid pioint. The NZRU is investing in players that other countries are actively poaching. Regardless I think relying on anyone elses development system for your national team is wrong. What's the point in playing international rugby when your national team is not only from your country - but are playing for your team because they couldn't get into their own?

Greg Rawlinson, Brad Thorn, Steve Devine and Saimone Taumoepeau

I said current squad. And Brad Thorn was born in New Zealand. And I said Pacific Islands. You could have said Ben Franks who was born in Australia before moving here at infancy. To make it easier http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/bornoverseas.ASP?stats_ID=8. Every AB player born overseas. Now pick three that wern't developed by the NZ rugby system.

Or NZ should get their house in order and develop their talent better...

There is no such thing as player 'stealing'. The idea that all 'more NZ than anything else' rugby players will all stay in NZ and twiddle their thumbs on not much money for the whole of their careers pining for an AB cap is naive.

And he has an Aussie grandmother, so he is perfectly entitled to be Australian lol.

Just sounds bitter from Hansen and a bit pathetic.

I don't blame any player for taking the money. I do however blame the ARU for recruiting from outside their own player base. To point how bad it is - Australian coaches who come over here look at our school systems to recruit from. Imagine if England recruited out of the French school system? I have an English grandmother - I think it's safe to presume that it's oppertunism rather than loyalty in Mike Harris' case.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well, let's make it easy for you. Played rugby at ANY level before coming to New Zealand. Ben Franks is technically Australian - I said PI born player. Regardless I'm not defending Hansen, I suspect this will be one of many times he will open his mouth when it should probably have been kept shut. But he does have a very valid pioint. The NZRU is investing in players that other countries are actively poaching. Regardless I think relying on anyone elses development system for your national team is wrong. What's the point in playing international rugby when your national team is not only from your country - but are playing for your team because they couldn't get into their own?

Then What the hell must Heyneke Meyer say then??

Sias Ebersohn going to the Force, Josh Strauss going to Edinburgh, CJ Stander going to Ireland... and many more.

How many South African players have done this recently? yet you don't hear Any SA Coach or SARU member ***** and moan about it, especially after not winning a test match.

EOYT will again be one of those matters arising if Richardt Strauss plays for Ireland.

In South Africa the development of young players starts at age 5 or 6. So this is just all a vicious cycle where nobody will win.

The point I'm trying to make is that Hansen should take it on the chin, accept things as they are and live with it. Everyone knows Aus does this, it's not a new phenomenon that happened overnight... The whole Clyde Rathbone episode still hurts many Saffas... but we accept it and move on.

 

[peanuts40]

I said current squad. And Brad Thorn was born in New Zealand. And I said Pacific Islands. You could have said Ben Franks who was born in Australia before moving here at infancy. To make it easier http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/bornoverseas.ASP?stats_ID=8. Every AB player born overseas. Now pick three that wern't developed by the NZ rugby system.

No you didn't, you said of the professional era, and any player who did not come through the NZ system, which INCLUDES Brad Thorn. And if you don't want to include Brad Thorn because he was born in NZ, I still have three who wern't developed by NZ

 

[William18]

What I find funny is that other countries (especially Northern Hemisphere) used to have a go at us for stealing talent from the islands. Now that they do it more than us, you don't hear a peep out of them. In fact, New Zealand is the most friendly countries to the Pacific islands. Most of their players come through our system and we even campaigned to allow former AB's to play for them. We certainly aren't morally superior but we do have superior talent.

And Hansen has been taken completely out of order. He did not mention international rugby at all. He was talking about SUPER RUGBY. He is most likely referring to the Rebels. Australia got a 5th team because for one it was beveled as being fair but also to develop their own players. How is signing up Cipriani and Woodward developing your own?

I don't think Harris is an Australian. If he was good enough he would play for the All Blacks. That is the problem. Every All Blacks player has always wanted to play for us, even if they were Australian or whatever. Australia is Harris' second choice. Sivivatu should have played for Fiji but he could pay for either country and chose New Zealand. I think this is essential as is players are playing for their first choice they will be most passionate. Let me ask you this, if Australia just takes players who are not good enough to make Super Rugby in New Zealand and puts them in their national team, how will they ever beat us? Logic tells you, The New Zealand discards will not defeat the New Zealand All Blacks. Obviously it isn't that bad in Australia as they only have one or two. Honestly though Harris was average on the weekend. He did okay but he will never do more than that. You think we're jealous? Australia can have him. The Blues could probably do with him next season but every other franchise has at least one (in some cases two) better first fives than him. The point is the fact that someone like Harris even made it to play for Australia shows the massive weaknesses in their rugby development system. Why do they have to get players like Harris? Where are there own players? If it doesn't concern Australian posters here, then so be it. If we ever had to get a player who couldn't make an Australian super rugby team to play for the All Blacks then we should stop using that famous name because the players wouldn't be up to it.

 

[nickdnz]

Then What the hell must Heyneke Meyer say then??
Sias Ebersohn going to the Force, Josh Strauss going to Edinburgh, CJ Stander going to Ireland... and many more.
How many South African players have done this recently? yet you don't hear Any SA Coach or SARU member ***** and moan about it, especially after not winning a test match.
EOYT will again be one of those matters arising if Richardt Strauss plays for Ireland.
In South Africa the development of young players starts at age 5 or 6. So this is just all a vicious cycle where nobody will win.
The point I'm trying to make is that Hansen should take it on the chin, accept things as they are and live with it. Everyone knows Aus does this, it's not a new phenomenon that happened overnight... The whole Clyde Rathbone episode still hurts many Saffas... but we accept it and move on.

Yes - and I've heard South African's moan about all those examples. I also never claimed this problem was exclusively New Zealand's. Ireland for example having this 'project player' system I find very wrong. Hansen didn't exactly start running his mouth over it - he was asked what he thought in regards to Harris kicking the penalties which lead to a draw when he has come from New Zealand. His response was that they should develop their own players instead of poaching ours, which is a perfectly fair response. We've lost Alby Mathewson, Winston Stanley, Toby Lynn, Scott Fugistaller, Pauliasi Manu, Jason Woodward, Ged Robinson, James King and Tom Chamberlain just to the Western Force and Melbourne Rebels in the last two seasons. Yet they insist on three franchises, while relying on our depth. Players like Woodward have really impressed in the ITM Cup and could have had a big future in NZ rugby if it wasn't for Aus.

No you didn't, you said of the professional era, and any player who did not come through the NZ system, which INCLUDES Brad Thorn. And if you don't want to include Brad Thorn because he was born in NZ, I still have three who wern't developed by NZ

I think you'll find Brad Thorn has played all his rugby union in New Zealand - other than his recent trip to Europe and Japan.
Saimone Taumoepeau is an interesting one. He did come to New Zealand at age 20 - so I suppose you have a point there. But both his brothers Tevita and David played NPC in New Zealand before that, and he never played any first class rugby outside NZ (wasn't selected for any age grade teams for Tonga). So I'm not sure if that counts as poaching? Rawlinson is a fair call (only South African to play for NZ ever - unless you count Andrew Mehrtens who was born in the Republic while his parents were on holiday). Steve Devine is also pretty cut and dry. Like William points out though - those players all chose New Zealand over any other nation - rather than as a consolation prize. Mike Harris said that he'd have stayed in NZ had he got a Super Rugby contract.

 

[big ginger 8]

Not this again.