Bill Anderson gives the NZRU a serve

[Jethro]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Long-serving Manawatu rugby commentator, administrator and player Bill Anderson has added his voice to Manawatu's Save The Turbos campaign. This is his letter to New Zealand Rugby Union chairman Jock Hobbs.

Thank you you for your prompt and concise response to the letter written by Barrie Angland on behalf of all rugby followers in the Manawatu.

However, the points you emphasised about fiscal responsibility, while valid, have a rather hollow ring to rugby followers in this area.

On the one hand you expect unions to exercise financial prudence. Yet almost daily we are being told about the escalating losses expected as a result of the Rugby World Cup which, despite being underwritten by the Government to some extent, will surely lead to more substantial future losses than those sustained by the Air New Zealand Cup.

You can see therefore the reason for the cynicism of followers in this area. To make matters worse, Steve Tew has stated publicly that the New Zealand Rugby Union will make a substantial contribution to the proposed new division one competition (when and if it begins). Doesn't that strike you as a strange decision?

You have worked in the corporate sector for some time now and surely one of the basic principles is that when any commercial entity undergoes a sustained period of financial reverses, a normal process is a comprehensive review of the entire operation, starting at the top.

I would suggest you instigate an independent review of NZRU head office. However, I would suspect most of the employees would struggle to achieve normal key performance indicators, if the last few years are anything to go by.

A lot of the financial pressures have, particularly in the last year, been caused by falling attendances at Super 14 matches. Has the board noticed this? I ask this question because, rather than cutting back on this competition, the board has agreed to an expansion.

That is a further unwise intrusion into the already limited window to play Air New Zealand Cup fixtures. Why do the Sanzar delegates from the world's premier rugby nation seem to get over-run by South Africa and Australia when, historically, Australian teams, in particular, perform abysmally in that competition?

When you open the Manawatu books in the near future you will hopefully agree that if the organisation you chair achieves the same financial turnaround, you would be a happy man. The Turbos have captured the imagination of the entire region unlike any sporting team I have seen during a lifetime of playing, coaching and lately administering a game. For the reasons outlined above, axing the Turbos at the end of this season will be seen as a major betrayal.

You must concede that the poor attendances at this year's Super 14 matches were due in part to the brand of rugby and also to the saturation of matches early in the year.

By contrast, the Air New Zealand Cup has produced an entertaining quality of rugby, drawn good attendances and built a bigger fan base (especially in the provinces). This competition has brought back to the game a generation of people who have felt disillusioned for some time. Axing such a format will surely undo all the good achieved in the last few years, a situation aggravated by the less-than-stellar performances of our flagship team, the All Blacks, so far this season.

When your board considers the future of our national game, it should be mindful of the fact that stakeholders include not just the bigger unions which have a Super 14 franchise.

I have detected at all levels an attitude of disenchantment. If you choose to ignore this, the long-term ramifications will damage the game way beyond the 2011 World Cup.Bill Anderson

Source : Stuff NZ[/b]

Makes a bunch of sense imho. The S14 is losing appeal in both Australia and New Zealand, an expansion is not the answer in Australia as it will take the expats out of the equation. I'm not that interested in watching the Tahs play anyone apart from the Reds, so probably wont bother catching a single game of S15 as it has no baring on my team (Hawke's Bay). How soon before the big Provinces in NZ start handling out S15 contracts to G9 players based on moves to certain other provinces for the ANZC, looking at you Canterbury.

 

[C A Iversen]

That made perfect sense to me. The ANZC competition has gradually improved out of sight against the S14/15 and Tri Nations. It's because we have the flavour of exciting smaller unions to watch. I wait all year to see our own team play Hawkes Bay, Manawatu, Taranaki, Northland,, Tasman and even Counties. I couldn't give a damn about the S14/15 and it's boring penalty driven rugby (due to defences being so worried about being up in each others faces that most games have 20 uncalled offsides and games are stalemates punctuated by penalties).

I don't really give a damn about the supposed top 5 unions and Super 14 darlings, Canterbury, Wellington, Auckland, Waikato and Otago.

A large percentage of New Zealand would rather let those show ponies stay in the premier division and have the remaining unions in Division 1 with 4 or five of the best Heartland teams and televise the hell out of that. I bet it'd be more attractive rugby too.

Super 14 and Tri Nations are eternally boring now. All they've done is finally add a team to the Tri-Nations (in 2012) and constantly add teams to the Super 10, 12, 14 and now 15. Wow, how f**king innovative.

There's gonna be a big furore over the off-season in New Zealand. I think most of the public has had enough.

 

[Flux]

What grates me the most is that the bigger unions are supporting reverting to the ten team format. Those in danger of the drop, of course, want to stay the way they are. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the bigger unions the one with less attendance and the ones failing to met the financial expectations? The biggest fear of the NZRU, I feel, is that the continued rise of the minnows will see the big guns struggle more and more. These teams are the backbone of the Super 14 (15 teams) and of course the NZRU won't get rid of them.

Coming from one of the minnow provinces, this really bothers me. Rugby is being turned into a corporate exercise, and despite the New Zealand public letting the NZRU know what their feeling is on the situation by supporting the ANZC and showing a lack of interest in the Super 14, and to a lesser degree, the All Blacks, we are still being ignored. Personally, I can't see things changing and the NZRU will just go on their merry way, continuing with their spin and bullshit. Next year I expect an even bigger drop in interest of Super rugby until the NZRU actually start paying attention to what people want, rather than standing around and scratching their heads wondering why nobody wants to buy their product.

 

[C A Iversen]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flux @ Oct 28 2009, 08:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

What grates me the most is that the bigger unions are supporting reverting to the ten team format. Those in danger of the drop, of course, want to stay the way they are. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the bigger unions the one with less attendance and the ones failing to met the financial expectations? The biggest fear of the NZRU, I feel, is that the continued rise of the minnows will see the big guns struggle more and more. These teams are the backbone of the Super 14 (15 teams) and of course the NZRU won't get rid of them.

Coming from one of the minnow provinces, this really bothers me. Rugby is being turned into a corporate exercise, and despite the New Zealand public letting the NZRU know what their feeling is on the situation by supporting the ANZC and showing a lack of interest in the Super 14, and to a lesser degree, the All Blacks, we are still being ignored. Personally, I can't see things changing and the NZRU will just go on their merry way, continuing with their spin and bullshit. Next year I expect an even bigger drop in interest of Super rugby until the NZRU actually start paying attention to what people want, rather than standing around and scratching their heads wondering why nobody wants to buy their product.[/b]

Yep, they are trying to look out for the big boys once again, when they are the real failures. Sooner or later they'll realise that we do actually know whats good for us.

 

[Flux]

Do you think suddenly letting the All Blacks play for their provinces could have anything to do with how badly some of the teams were performing until they got their stars back? Without the All Blacks it was an evener playing field, which proved to be the most effective way to gain public interest.

 

[Nickdnz]

To be fair, I believe the smaller provinces have shown more intrest in their local team due to the idea it may be a last chance to see them play, as well as to influence the NZRU to keep them in the competition. Down the track, say 4-5 years time, do you really believe that auidences will be sustained?

I don't see why there is a negative attitude towards the larger provinces, and only Cantebury out of the five main teams are in any serious financial dept. Also, auidence attendance is only a smll part of financial gain for the NZRU, and this fact is very much forgotten. Provincial teams are financed by both NZRU and also sponsors, who will only remain sponcering providing there is a good television auidence, crowd attendance has all ways really been the iceing on the cake.
Also, I don't see why people are now complaining about the Tri Nations as well. What do people want, no international competitions now? And I don't see how adding Argentina to the fixture is a reasons to complain. People claim "The current format is boring" and then when Argentina is added and instead of three matches verse each team, it changes to two, which ultimatly solves the whole "boring" aspect of the same three teams competing against each other constantly, and yet NZ fans just seem to find any reason to complain.
I agree that changes have to be made to our domestic competition. I don't mind it taking over from the Super 14/15, providing that, like the Heinekin Cup, our best domestic teams, compete against domestic teams of other countries, in order to test our level playing against other countries. No matter what people say, the Super 14 is still a much higher level of playing then the Air New Zealand Cup, and unless the NPC can turn into a fully professional competition, with a way of comparision between our provincial teams, and that of say, SA or Aus and even Japan and Argentina, then the Super 14/15 will have to remain. The fact that the NPC offers more entertaining rugby becomes irrelavent when players from the NPC begin to loose at international level because of a lack of professional rugby experience. This is the professional era, and while it is a romantic idea to keep smaller provinces, and make the NPC the leading competition in order to make the NPC a better competition, we would -
a). Need to get rid of the ANZC structure and base it like the ones in Europe
b ). Make all provinces pay players at a decent salery, so not to loose the best players to over seas, which again would mean small provinces would struggle to keep their talent.
d). Find a huge source of sponsors, much more the in the Super 14, and there are far more players needing to be payed more highly. The only way this can really work as John Kirwan has said, is that we allow players from NZ to compete in the same competition as the Japanese leagues, and would therefore loose much of our talent.
I mean there may be a few things I have over looked and not considered, but it would be very difficult for the NZRU to abandon the Super 14/15 (not to mention loose the sponsors for the competition) as well as set up a new NPC structure that will not only keep NZ's main talent in NZ, but keep NZ's international performance at a high standard (And the argument that we were playing at a high standard prior to Super 14/15 is rubbish, as the sport had only just become professional).
I don't mean to be very negative, and I am betting I will be perceived by some as a twat, however I am trying to be realistic, and one good season can't really be good enough reason for the past decade of neglect towards many smaller provinces. I am not even trying to say we shouldn't get rid of the Super 14/15, however moving back to the old NPC structure is a bad idea in itself, as I have mentioned due to no test at provincial/club level against other international standards. I believe the only way a decent competition, that would benafit both players, provinces and fans, is an entirley new format which would revolve around provincial rugby, however a side competition (like the Heineken Cup) would have to be set up so we could compete against other provincial teams/clubs from other countries. This would ensure that a high standard of rugby was still being played at a high level of competition, while allowing the provincial unions to remain in the highest standard of rugby. The point must be stressed that in order for this format to be put into place, a large amount of sponsorship would be required in order to pay players high enough wages so that they remain in NZ, which the NPC alone, currently dosn't offer.
That is my 5c, if you read it all well done, and thank you for the time.

 

[Jethro]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Oct 28 2009, 07:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

To be fair, I believe the smaller provinces have shown more intrest in their local team due to the idea it may be a last chance to see them play, as well as to influence the NZRU to keep them in the competition. Down the track, say 4-5 years time, do you really believe that auidences will be sustained?[/b]

My arguement has always been hold off reducing the ANZC for three further years and then revisit the competition. The continued changing of the format is not helping. Talking from a Bay perspective, yeap our crowds will be there in 4-5 years and yes the team will live under it's budget.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

I don't see why there is a negative attitude towards the larger provinces, and only Cantebury out of the five main teams are in any serious financial dept. Also, auidence attendance is only a smll part of financial gain for the NZRU, and this fact is very much forgotten. Provincial teams are financed by both NZRU and also sponsors, who will only remain sponcering providing there is a good television auidence, crowd attendance has all ways really been the iceing on the cake.[/b]

The larger Provinces are the ones backing the NZRU, do you honestly believe they have any trust in the rest of the country? How on earth do they justify retaining Otago at the cost of Tasman? One has good crowds and their finances are in order the other gets sponsored by speights.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Also, I don't see why people are now complaining about the Tri Nations as well. What do people want, no international competitions now? And I don't see how adding Argentina to the fixture is a reasons to complain. People claim "The current format is boring" and then when Argentina is added and instead of three matches verse each team, it changes to two, which ultimatly solves the whole "boring" aspect of the same three teams competing against each other constantly, and yet NZ fans just seem to find any reason to complain.[/b]

The only complaints I'm seeing is how oftern we play each other. While it'll be nice fo see eight in the row over the Aussies, and the continued spats in the papers from the ARU, Dingo, and assorted players is entertaining, it is rather boring. The additional of Los Pumas is going to breath new life into the competition.

Sorry have to hoof it to the office so don't have time to address your other points. End of day the ANZC is the lifeblood of NZ rugby, fitting in between club and international, further erosion of this competition will see rugby back on a downward spiral in New Zealand. The ANZC is currently a level playing field, albeit with most of the G9 having a lack of depth, interest is way up with the "minions" getting results finally over the more fancied teams, why on earth would you want to destory that. If the comp is reduced to ten teams expect some heavy fall off in viewer numbers and eventually crowd figures as the likes of Canterbury and Auckland simply buy themselves into strong positions.

 

[C A Iversen]

I don't have the time to address a massive diatribe like that Nickdnz. Simply put, you twisted many truths.

"Also, I don't see why people are now complaining about the Tri Nations as well. What do people want, no international competitions now? And I don't see how adding Argentina to the fixture is a reasons to complain. People claim "The current format is boring" and then when Argentina is added and instead of three matches verse each team, it changes to two, which ultimatly solves the whole "boring" aspect of the same three teams competing against each other constantly, and yet NZ fans just seem to find any reason to complain."

I like Argentina being brought in, my complaint is that it took so long and that the format is stagnant. You can't cram the same games down our throats forever and personally I'd rather have the Tri-Nations every two years and have a tour from another country on the year in between. That'd keep the Tri-Nations super fresh, but that's just my opinion. I just didn't have the time to make an epic post about it to be clearer.

The point of what I was saying is that the SANZAR boys just think adding a team to any comp makes it new and have done for a long time, rather than slight format changes to keep things fresh. Argentina is the only good idea they've had. The Super comp additions are just pushing the competition to become a long, boring year-stretching waste of resources.

As for the ANZC, I firmly believe the crowd levels will stay the same for the smaller unions if they are in premier grade. Southlands have grown year on year for 5 years. You bigger unions are just running scared that there's a certain amount of sponsorship in NZ to go around and sponsors would start looking at sponsoring the "new" teams who play to the "we're not a big city, but we try hard" sentimental favourite card. That's why the big unions are trying to shaft the small.

 

[Nickdnz]

"You bigger unions are just running scared that there's a certain amount of sponsorship in NZ to go around and sponsors would start looking at sponsoring the "new" teams who play to the "we're not a big city, but we try hard" sentimental favourite card. That's why the big unions are trying to shaft the small."...are we scared?

Even many of the smaller unions have all ready stated that while they arn't happy with the decision, most agreed (including Manawatu if I remember correctly) it makes sence under the current ANZC structure, that with those teams, the competition isn't financially profitable. Which is why I said that if the ANZC were to be profitable, not only abandoning the NPC, but organising a new side competition which would allow teams to compete against other national clubs/provincial teams.

"Super 14 and Tri Nations are eternally boring now. All they've done is finally add a team to the Tri-Nations (in 2012) and constantly add teams to the Super 10, 12, 14 and now 15. Wow, how f**king innovative." I gathered from that statment your wern't impressed with the decision to add Argentina, and that this decision would not add to an all ready boring competition, however I guess I miss took your post.

As I have said, I want to keep the smaller provinces, and from what I have heard from people in Wellington (one of the apparent evil big provinces) noone want to loose the smaller provinces. However, in order for a decent domestic competition, we have 2 both abandon the current Super 14/15, sponcor the hell out of (hopefully keeping the same sponcors from S14) the provinces, both small and big, organise an internationally competed side competition and add a new level of professionalism towards the competition. Can anyone see any problems with this idea?

 

[C A Iversen]

I could argue that up down and sideways, but frankly it's starting to bore me. Your not going to listen to my statements and I'm seriously not buying yours either (especially with your dozens of spelling mist....I mean typos). So how about we discuss the issue, but not make reference to each others argument, because I have a life and not enough time to come on this forum as it is, without having to have a punch and counter punch debate.

 

[Nickdnz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Oct 29 2009, 06:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I could argue that up down and sideways, but frankly it's starting to bore me. Your not going to listen to my statements and I'm seriously not buying yours either (especially with your dozens of spelling mist....I mean typos). So how about we discuss the issue, but not make reference to each others argument, because I have a life and not enough time to come on this forum as it is, without having to have a punch and counter punch debate.[/b]

Wow relax mate. Sorry for typos, I just don't often read over what I type. Anyway I have said what I think, and I do disagree that in the competitions current format, teams like Manawatu can be financially beneficial, and I do think, at this point at least, the crowd numbers are not a fair representation of how Manawatu's crowd attendances will be in the foreseeable future, I could be wrong, but then I'm just saying my opinion, that is still all right CA Iversen? As for sticking to the argument, I have been, however when someone responds to a post, I often respond back. I think it is called a conversation. The fact that you called my past post a "massive diatribe" seems a little unnecessary considering the post was not aimed at anyone in particular, I was just trying to offer a different point of view. Sorry to bore you...Anyway, as not to waste what precious forum time you have, I don't expect a reply, and will be looking forward to your one post-per-topic replies in the future.

 

[Jethro]

One of Tewbacca's reasons for reducing the competition is crowd numbers in 2009, ironically they are down in the big five areas, Canterbury of course is excused due to Stadium upgrade, and are up in the G9. Why should the G9 be made to suffer due to the inability of the big five to market games in their individual areas?

 

[danger]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nickdnz @ Oct 29 2009, 10:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Oct 29 2009, 06:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I could argue that up down and sideways, but frankly it's starting to bore me. Your not going to listen to my statements and I'm seriously not buying yours either (especially with your dozens of spelling mist....I mean typos). So how about we discuss the issue, but not make reference to each others argument, because I have a life and not enough time to come on this forum as it is, without having to have a punch and counter punch debate.[/b]

Wow relax mate. Sorry for typos, I just don't often read over what I type. Anyway I have said what I think, and I do disagree that in the competitions current format, teams like Manawatu can be financially beneficial, and I do think, at this point at least, the crowd numbers are not a fair representation of how Manawatu's crowd attendances will be in the foreseeable future, I could be wrong, but then I'm just saying my opinion, that is still all right CA Iversen? As for sticking to the argument, I have been, however when someone responds to a post, I often respond back. I think it is called a conversation. The fact that you called my past post a "massive diatribe" seems a little unnecessary considering the post was not aimed at anyone in particular, I was just trying to offer a different point of view. Sorry to bore you...Anyway, as not to waste what precious forum time you have, I don't expect a reply, and will be looking forward to your one post-per-topic replies in the future.
[/b][/quote]

Oookay. Im typing this from Massey Uni at the moment so i think i can offer an opinion here.

While the fact that Manawatu might be cut was a factor to the huge turnouts, it was only a small factor. The die hard rugby supporters are fueled by this, but the majority of the crowd arent. Most of them, i.e girls, have no idea of what they are looking at, much less the possible future of the team. Instead it has just been Manawatu being very very smart over the last couple of years, if you ask me they are the best run province in NZ.

Firstly, they made sure to sign as much home grown talent as possible, guys like Kurt Baker, Andre Taylor, Cruden, Brent Thompson ect. Not only does this make the team stronger, but you get all their mates, family friends and guys that knew them at school turning out to see how they go, there is an interest in the individual player which leads them to support the team.

This carries on to their luring of Uni students to games, This has been masterfully done.
They get the Turbos to practice on the Massey fields, it is literally 10 metres from my room and that of 400 other students. The Turbos also make use of the uni gym, anyone can just get on the treadmill next to Cruden and ask how it was playing against McCaw.
They also have put in place extremely cheep students tickets, free buses to the games and best of all, Massey university is under a constant alcohol ban, which is only lifted from 7 till 10:30 on saturdays and thursdays. I dont know how they did it but the ban is also lifted before Turbos games.

They also signed Uni players, Guys like Cullum Gibbons and Isaac Thompson who the Uni students have lived with and see around campus every day, this contributes alot of the attendance, alot of the girls especially who wouldnt have a clue what they are watching but its an excuse to go out and get drunk and that guy that tried to chat them up that one time is on the field.

Speaking on behalf of me and my mates, i dont really care how the team performs, win or loss, i dont really care. What attracts me to the game every week is the opportunity to get drunk, and more importantly the brand of rugby. they play a very pretty style, alot of sweeping wide movements and line breaks and tries, if you like watching a good game of rugby, no matter which team you support, you will enjoy watching them play. Its just great to watch for the neutral

All things considered, then yes, i think if the Turbos stayed in the top flight and kept operating as they are now, they will continue to get the attendance they are getting now.