British & Irish Lions vs Japan

[Jakedood]

I said a lot not all. What do you think the main motivation is for players to go over to Japan?

May be rhetorical but i'll still answer

Apparently Kruis was keen to live in Japan for a year or so having seen the culture and energy of the place & people during the world cup, no doubt he's being paid well, but it's a big thing for him and I applaud him for it

Secondly it cant be that substandard given Vermeulen and several other Saffas went straight from playing in it to dominating the 2019 WC

I dont know if i can watch it, and havent overly followed, but Kruis is in his prime and most times coming back from a substandard league, its the intensity that gets you in the step up to international level. The japanese style is less physical but probably a lot more tactical, and precise, as well as high energy so I dont think this is too big an issue
I could understand this argument more if it was straight into the tests, however the warm up games mean you have a little time to readjust and as said before, hes the most well rounded lock England have

If he was called up I dont think there'd be many complaints at all, its just less at the forefront of commentators minds because they havent seen him play (also not even sure if the games are broadcast over here before you say its because the league is a pile of dog turd)
Its the same for if players are in France, we dont really watch those leagues.
For example, how many people actually watched Jadon Sancho play for dortmund in bundesliga, despite all the hype around him? Id say very few, and thats a league with minimal competition as well
So I dunno why exactly, and would love to know if Kruis was written off from the get go, but if you also havent watched a japanese top league game, i'd suggest its pretty unfair to instantly write it off as "sub-standard"

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yeah, you're making yet another strawman of my position and making false equivalences.

All you've got to do is ask yourself why is it just you, and a few others in the is forum, who hold this view? Why is it not being considered (I'll grant you as far as we know as it could be for all we know) but any of the coaching staff? Why are there several players above him for consideration. Especially when they're rubbish players like Adam Beard.

You are attacking the quality of the league and claiming players are just there for an easy retirement. You get players at the tail end of their career and lower standards in all leagues at some point. However he is being coached by a coach who I'd say has a better record than any Pro 14 coach excluding Leinster. He has played with some world class operators in a high speed league. Is it as intense as the European leagues? Likely not but your arguments just don't stand up. You keep going on about how inferior the league is but have you seen any games? This seems to be a point you love sticking to. As others have said, many other internationals who have played in that league have come back to international games and performed fine, yet you think Kruis uniquely and alone will have suffered a huge drop in form whilst the other internationals magically didn't? If it's such a poor quality league why aren't all the other internationals who played in it **** when they return? There are no cases of this to support your claim and before he went out there Kruis was better than AWJ.

I've already told you, he's not being considered because of the geography. Every time he has been in the UK he has been considered and played. He has 5 wins and 2 losses against Wales.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Kruis has been very open over why he went to Japan: he's wanted to play out there since he was a kid, but kept putting it off because it would mean retiring from England duties.
He spoke to some sides when he was out there for the RWC and then when Sarries got relegated all the stars seemed to align for the move.

Good for him and I hope he's doing well.

The other thing to consider is, that I think Gatland absolutely loves Kruis. He's his type of player. Got a bit of dog in him, loves the nitty gritty, great lineout operator etc etc which goes to show how much Gatlands values playing top rugby (namely international) when selecting a lions squad.

 

[Jakedood]

Good for him and I hope he's doing well.

The other thing to consider is, that I think Gatland absolutely loves Kruis. He's his type of player. Got a bit of dog in him, loves the bitty gritty, great lineout operator etc etc which goes to show how much Gatlands values playing top rugby (namely international) when selecting a lions squad.

Again, you dont know this at all. Kruis was dropped from first test in 2017 and never got another look in, so that could be a part in it too
You have no idea if that means Gatland discounted for top 14 or not, its just an assumption. Maybe he genuinely, spasmodically thinks that Beard is better than Kruis, who knows

Did you see the intensity and physicality on the japanese team on Saturday? Maybe smaller beings, but they threw themselves into everything, and played at a really high intensity, more so than the Lions even

 

[Welsh Exile]

You are attacking the quality of the league and claiming players are just there for an easy retirement. You get players at the tail end of their career and lower standards in all leagues at some point. However he is being coached by a coach who I'd say has a better record than any Pro 14 coach excluding Leinster. He has played with some world class operators in a high speed league. Is it as intense as the European leagues? Likely not but your arguments just don't stand up. You keep going on about how inferior the league is but have you seen any games? This seems to be a point you love sticking to. As others have said, many other internationals who have played in that league have come back to international games and performed fine, yet you think Kruis uniquely and alone will have suffered a huge drop in form whilst the other internationals magically didn't? If it's such a poor quality league why aren't all the other internationals who played in it **** when they return? There are no cases of this to support your claim and before he went out there Kruis was better than AWJ.

I've already told you, he's not being considered because of the geography. Every time he has been in the UK he has been considered and played. He has 5 wins and 2 losses against Wales.

I'm attacking the physicality and intensity of the league, yes. This is a lions tour to SA that Gatland has picked.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Again, you dont know this at all. Kruis was dropped from first test in 2017 and never got another look in, so that could be a part in it too
You have no idea if that means Gatland discounted for top 14 or not, its just an assumption. Maybe he genuinely, spasmodically thinks that Beard is better than Kruis, who knows

Oh yeah for sure, I don't know this and I'm 100% assuming based on the types of locks Gatland likes and the fact he started him first up in 2017. No arguments from me there.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I said a lot not all. What do you think the main motivation is for players to go over to Japan?

That's a rhetorical question by the way.

Ignoring it being a rhetorical question because I don't think it's as obvious a money grab as often made out. I reckon it's as much to prolong international careers as it is to earn money in a lot of cases. Japan had some pretty old dudes playing high quality rugby at the last two world cups, keeping the aerobic fitness up to a level similar to other domestic leagues while not taking the huge hits surely plays a part. A lot of SH players return to international rugby after a stint in Japan than they do after going to France for example.

 

[Jakedood]

Oh yeah for sure, I don't know this and I'm 100% assuming based on the types of locks Gatland likes and the fact he started him first up in 2017. No arguments from me there.

I think its relatively safe to say he's gone for what he wants in a tighthead lock. Big and tall, and thatl'll do. Lockout a scrum and inspect a few rucks, that'll do nicely mate

 

[MikeTheNative]

Beard is a massive lump that is good at the set piece, defensive and attacking, decent enough work rate. Probably isn't aggressive / dynamic as you would want but he still usually get's over the gain line, don't expect him to go thundering through it though. Considering the more dynamic and on the lighter size back row they have picked, a bigger 2nd row helps balance that pack out.

 

[big ginger 8]

I hope there were some very vocal complaints when Shane Williams was called up from Japan in 2013.

I regret throwing out Kruis as a name given it is really Gray missing out that should be the story. Or the conspiracy theories about Ryan's injury.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Ignoring it being a rhetorical question because I don't think it's as obvious a money grab as often made out. I reckon it's as much to prolong international careers as it is to earn money in a lot of cases. Japan had some pretty old dudes playing high quality rugby at the last two world cups, keeping the aerobic fitness up to a level similar to other domestic leagues while not taking the huge hits surely plays a part. A lot of SH players return to international rugby after a stint in Japan than they do after going to France for example.

This has all strayed way off, though. The question is, do you think players who have been playing out in Japan for the last year (who also have not played any international rugby since March 2020) should be starting above AWJ?

Obviously @ncurd massively changed the goalposts as he realised how stupid that was to them saying "ahhh, by match fit I didn't mean match fit, I meant playing in the prem and international rugby"

If Kruis was still knocking about over here even I would defiantly have him in the conversation. Fact is, he ain't and most coaches seem to agree with me on this

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I hope there were some very vocal complaints when Shane Williams was called up from Japan in 2013.

Can't recall the questions over the fitness of Warburton and Halfpenny when they travelled injured, as well

 

[MikeTheNative]

Saracens players have been picked despite having average to poor 6 nations (Daly was awful) and been playing in the Championship, can't say that's Welsh bias

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'm attacking the physicality and intensity of the league, yes. This is a lions tour to SA that Gatland has picked.

So we have nothing to worry about the South Africans who play in that league then by your reasoning?

 

[Welsh Exile]

So we have nothing to worry about the South Africans who play in that league then by your reasoning?

Well I wouldn't say nothing to worry about but I've been pretty confident (much to the annoyance of one South African on here) about the result of the series and my rationale is mainly down to their lack of international rugby since 2019.

I'm not as super confident as I was before North, AWJ and Tips got injured but still quietly confident, yes.

 

[ncurd]

This has all strayed way off, though. The question is, do you think players who have been playing out in Japan for the last year (who also have not played any international rugby since March 2020) should be starting above AWJ?

Obviously @ncurd massively changed the goalposts as he realised how stupid that was to them saying "ahhh, by match fit I didn't mean match fit, I meant playing in the prem and international rugby"

If Kruis was still knocking about over here even I would defiantly have him in the conversation. Fact is, he ain't and most coaches seem to agree with me on this

I said fully match fit its there in the original. I'm not pretenting Kruis is going to come from Japan and be at his best to play international rugby without some gametime and being a training enviroment with other itnernationals. That's not moving the goals posts its yout not realising what the **** I meant by the words and then deciding I moved them because it meant you couldn't carry out this drama.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I said fully match fit its there in the original. I'm not pretenting Kruis is going to come from Japan and be at his best to play international rugby without some gametime and being a training enviroment with other itnernationals. That's not moving the goals posts its yout not realising what the **** I meant by the words and then deciding I moved them because it meant you couldn't carry out this drama.

Ok if that's what you really meant but I'm sure you accept that saying fully match fit can easily be interpreted as being 100% fit and ready to play and not anything to do with where they are playing or at the level they are playing at. But happy to accept you misspoke as I do it all the time.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Well I wouldn't say nothing to worry about but I've been pretty confident (much to the annoyance of one South African on here) about the result of the series and my rationale is mainly down to their lack of international rugby since 2019.

I'm not as super confident as I was before North, AWJ and Tips got injured but still quietly confident, yes.

So it's lack of game time you think is the problem, not being in Japan? So the Saffers who play in the other leagues will be better than the ones playing in Japan and the Saffas who played at the last world cup who were based in Japan were all poor, correct?

 

[ncurd]

Saracens players have been picked despite having average to poor 6 nations (Daly was awful) and been playing in the Championship, can't say that's Welsh bias

Nobody's really complaining about Navidi's call up, not really seen anyone say it apart from being tongue in cheek.

Daly being called up is joke along with Mako. The only Sarries players I'd of considered is Itoje (who didn't have his best 6 nations but got a worse wrap than he really deserved) and George (cause the lads talented but his drop off in form was new not over a prolonged period of time).

 

[Groundhog]

I hope there were some very vocal complaints when Shane Williams was called up from Japan in 2013.

I regret throwing out Kruis as a name given it is really Gray missing out that should be the story. Or the conspiracy theories about Ryan's injury.

Yeah this has gone down a weird route with Kruis. Main story is if Ryan plays for Ireland this weekend I am mailing Gatland an envelope full of Sunday morning Guinness shits.