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England 2024/25

I don't particularly want to see CCS at lock either, but can this exact argument not kinda be used to argue why he should play lock, given that our locks don't tend be great carriers either?

"I think he offers something which most of England's back rowers locks (apart from Willis Martin) don't have - a big ball carry thing threat."
I don't think its as important to have a lock that can carry as it is to have a back row that can carry. After all a lock is not going to do any carrying whilst he is untangling his head from inbetween the props arses in the scrum. Whereas a backrow can easily break off the scrum and carry.
 
I don't think its as important to have a lock that can carry as it is to have a back row that can carry. After all a lock is not going to do any carrying whilst he is untangling his head from inbetween the props arses in the scrum. Whereas a backrow can easily break off the scrum and carry.
I mean you say that but all the top 4 teams at the moment use at least 1 lock as a primary carrier. Ireland have McCarthy, France have Meafou/Guillard/Tuilagi, New Zealand have Tuipulotu/Vaa'i, SA have Etzebeth/Snyman. Clearly there is quite a lot to be said for having a lock who can do damage with ball in hand.

CCS shouldn't play lock because he's only 6'4, has hardly ever played there, and doesn't get through enough hard graft for the position. The fact he's a good ball carrier doesn't really have anything to do with it IMO.
 
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I mean you say that but all the top 4 teams at the moment use at least 1 lock as a primary carrier. Ireland have McCarthy, France have Meafou/Guillard/Tuilagi, New Zealand have Tuipulotu/Vaa'i, SA have Etzebeth/Snyman. Clearly there is quite a lot to be said for having a lock who can do damage with ball in hand.

CCS shouldn't play lock because he's only 6'4, has hardly ever played there, and doesn't get through enough hard graft for the position. The fact he's a good ball carrier doesn't really have anything to do with it IMO.
How tall does a lock need to be? Genuine question.

CCS is a 8 i agree, but he does well at 6 and no issue with a powerful lock, we seem to want a a faster back row, with Willis at 8 CCS as 8/6/5 cover isn't an issue at 19 for me with say BCurry to cover Earl/TCurry.

But I would rather CCS in the back r9w.

Seems Coles isn't really preferred and Martin has a pretty bad injury record for his age.
, who are the up and comers or other contenders to fight for that 5/19 place? I can't think of many off the top of my head.
 
How tall does a lock need to be? Genuine question.

CCS is a 8 i agree, but he does well at 6 and no issue with a powerful lock, we seem to want a a faster back row, with Willis at 8 CCS as 8/6/5 cover isn't an issue at 19 for me with say BCurry to cover Earl/TCurry.

But I would rather CCS in the back r9w.

Seems Coles isn't really preferred and Martin has a pretty bad injury record for his age.
, who are the up and comers or other contenders to fight for that 5/19 place? I can't think of many off the top of my head.

Most are at least 6'6", or at least listed as such. Itoje and Thorn are notable examples who were listed as 6'5".
 
There is an article in The Times headed "Freddie Steward: Every time someone made a line break I thought, 'Oh ****'"
As its behind a paywall I can't read it but I would be interested to know what it says if anyone has access.
 
I mean you say that but all the top 4 teams at the moment use at least 1 lock as a primary carrier. Ireland have McCarthy, France have Meafou/Guillard/Tuilagi, New Zealand have Tuipulotu/Vaa'i, SA have Etzebeth/Snyman. Clearly there is quite a lot to be said for having a lock who can do damage with ball in hand.

CCS shouldn't play lock because he's only 6'4, has hardly ever played there, and doesn't get through enough hard graft for the position. The fact he's a good ball carrier doesn't really have anything to do with it IMO.

TBF Petti is 6ft 4 and is imo a class lock.
 
TBF Petti is 6ft 4 and is imo a class lock.
That's true, but he is very much the exception rather than the rule. He's also pretty much always played alongside a 6'7 monster of a flanker in Marcos Kremer who can make up for Petti's shortcomings (literally). We don't have anyone like that other than Chessum, and if we were to play Chessum and CCS at the same time then we'd be best off just keeping Chessum at lock and CCS in the back row.
 
Thanks.

"At Twickenham against the Boks in November last year he was wrong-footed by a jinking Grant Williams, the scrum half who broke through England's defence and sent Steward the wrong way for a sensational try. Then, on his next start, it happened again, this time Ireland's Jamison Gibson-Park cutting inside him, Steward unable to lay a finger on the No9 as he went in to score.
As the rock at the back, the last line of defence, Steward took those two misreads to heart. He felt exposed, like a goalkeeper who has been fooled, feet in concrete, by a clever penalty. It shattered his confidence.
There were technical points to learn from the experience — shortening his steps while approaching a tackle, staying on his toes, working out cues for when the runner is going to change direction — but Steward found the mental side more difficult.
"Test matches are decided on fine margins, and stuff like that can determine outcomes," he says, ruing two games England lost — South Africa by nine points, Ireland by five.
"I got myself into a bit of a hole, psychologically, as I missed one or two, and then suddenly every time someone made a linebreak I'm like, 'Oh ****,' I'm overthinking everything, and lost that autopilot of 'I've been here before and can make that tackle.' Getting that back has been a challenge."
Michael Cheika has been Steward's third friend here. The Leicester head coach, and the attack coach, Peter Hewat, have worked with Steward on fine-tuning his ball-carrying, his evasion, and line-cutting from No15, which have all notably improved this season."
 
How tall does a lock need to be? Genuine question.

Ideally in 6'7 to 6'9 range for me.

Was just wondering the other day how big a star Simon Shaw would be in today's game. Massive unit 6'8 and 19 plus stone who could run and handle at a time when locks generally didn't. He used to have a bit of a black mark against him for being too heavy to lift in the line out but today's monsters would have no problem with that (when he started out, you could only support a jumper, not lift). But on his day he was virtually unplayable.
 
That's true, but he is very much the exception rather than the rule. He's also pretty much always played alongside a 6'7 monster of a flanker in Marcos Kremer who can make up for Petti's shortcomings (literally). We don't have anyone like that other than Chessum, and if we were to play Chessum and CCS at the same time then we'd be best off just keeping Chessum at lock and CCS in the back row.

Kremer is like 6'5

Granted I know he weighs like a bull but young lock Tuilagi is also 6'4

what has happened to Tuima btw? Just a victim of Chiefs poor form? He looked an interesting prospect last season at lock.
 
Ideally in 6'7 to 6'9 range for me.

Was just wondering the other day how big a star Simon Shaw would be in today's game. Massive unit 6'8 and 19 plus stone who could run and handle at a time when locks generally didn't. He used to have a bit of a black mark against him for being too heavy to lift in the line out but today's monsters would have no problem with that (when he started out, you could only support a jumper, not lift). But on his day he was virtually unplayable.
So what English locks fit this? Junior kpoku? Only know because of u20
 
So what English locks fit this? Junior kpoku? Only know because of u20
Clark - 6ft 7
Coles - 6ft9
Lockett - 6ft7
Munga - 6ft7
Bamber - 6ft9
Isiekwe - 6ft7
Sodeke - 6ft9
Kpoku - 6ft9

Bold are over 19 stone
Also interested to see how Lewis Chessum comes back to Tigers after his loan stint in Japan he's started a lot of rugby there

Thing is we have all these locks who are in their mid to early 20's but not many are out and out starters for their club yet
Clark and Coles from that list. Isiekwe being a bit older
 
Excited to see how Tom Burrow progresses, 6ft8 and just shy of 18st but looked pretty skinny next to the other England forwards in the u20s so should fill out a bit over the next few years

I've always thought a lock should be 6ft6 and up but really 6'4 and up is fine,
Inch or two difference in the lineout isn't the end of the world if you've got a good lifting pod or good reactions/reading ability
 
Kremer is like 6'5
Damn you right, I had in my head that he was significantly taller for some reason. The point largely still stands though; Petti at lock works because he's got a very good lineout jumping flanker to take the pressure off of him.
Granted I know he weighs like a bull but young lock Tuilagi is also 6'4
Same situation; this only works because he doesn't need to jump as France don't have a single back rower below 6'3 and always have one that's at least 6'4. Ollivon is 6'7. They have lineout jumpers everywhere so Tuilagi doesn't need to. CCS wouldn't have that luxury.
what has happened to Tuima btw? Just a victim of Chiefs poor form? He looked an interesting prospect last season at lock.
Has had a few little injuries which have stopped him from nailing down a regular starting place. Also a bit of a victim of both Tshiunza and Capstick getting moved to lock rather than back row, and Molina and Jenkins also being two of our most consistent performers. I still think there's hope for him, but it's looking less and less likely.
 
Also Ollie Chessum and Martin are only 24 and 23 years old
Easy to forget that.

Even Itoje is 30 years old

By next rugby World Cup
Itoje will just be turning 33
Chessum will be 27
Martin will be 26

Realistically we just need two locks try and step up and we should in a great place

Yep, although both Martin and Chessum have had more than their share of injuries.

In contrast Itoje's robustness is quite incredible - clearly can't be getting stuck in enough 😀
 

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