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England 2024/25

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Earl consigning himself to the bench for the foreseeable with gushing praise for A Farrell “treated us like adults”, I’d do anything for that man”, “amazing coach”, “made me believe in how good I am” etc.

Over and above the usual platitudes. Bet SB was delighted to read that.
 
Vieux Talonneur said:
Earl consigning himself to the bench for the foreseeable with gushing praise for A Farrell "treated us like adults", I'd do anything for that man", "amazing coach", "made me believe in how good I am" etc.

Over and above the usual platitudes. Bet SB was delighted to read that.
Click to expand...
I thought that was inevitable anyway with Pollock , Pepper and Ben Curry about now.
Earl is the perfect bench player now...covers back row and backs.
 
Vieux Talonneur said:
Earl consigning himself to the bench for the foreseeable with gushing praise for A Farrell "treated us like adults", I'd do anything for that man", "amazing coach", "made me believe in how good I am" etc.

Over and above the usual platitudes. Bet SB was delighted to read that.
Click to expand...
Wonder if Farrell Sr will take over Saracens when he's through with Ireland,
Farrell Sr. DoR, Farrell Jr. backs coach
 
Geordie said:
I bet theyre considering it!
Click to expand...
SB is considering velcro shoes because he can't tie his own laces
Just because he's considering something doesn't mean he's right!

Earl is significantly better than Pollock though - Pollock's stock has dropped this tour, for me. He haD a couple of good interventions but goes missing for very large portions of games. Could be useful off the bench (condense his game time so his big interventions aren't watered down so much) but I'd still pick Earl every time

I still think it's too soon for Pollock, let him settle more into senior rugby at Saints and then see where we're at when he's out of nappies.
Thought Earl had a good tour, better than he's looked in a while for England tbh
 
TRF_Olyy said:
SB is considering velcro shoes because he can't tie his own laces
Just because he's considering something doesn't mean he's right!

Earl is significantly better than Pollock tough - Pollock's stock has dropped this tour, he has a couple of good interventions but goes missing for very large portions of games. Could be useful off the bench (condense his game time so his big interventions aren't watered down so much) but I'd still pick Earl every time
Still think it's too soon for Pollock, let him settle more into senior rugby at Saints and then see where we're at when he's out of nappies
Thought Earl had a good tour, better than he's looked in a while for England tbh
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i didnt say it was right, i think it something teams will be looking at. I too would pick Earl every time over Pollock at present. Pollock still has a lot of developing to do.

I havent watched the tour so cant comment on any players performances.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
SB is considering velcro shoes because he can't tie his own laces
Just because he's considering something doesn't mean he's right!

Earl is significantly better than Pollock though - Pollock's stock has dropped this tour, for me. He haD a couple of good interventions but goes missing for very large portions of games. Could be useful off the bench (condense his game time so his big interventions aren't watered down so much) but I'd still pick Earl every time

I still think it's too soon for Pollock, let him settle more into senior rugby at Saints and then see where we're at when he's out of nappies.
Thought Earl had a good tour, better than he's looked in a while for England tbh
Click to expand...

Pollock was a teenager a few months ago, has half an hour’s international experience. (really only equates to 5 minutes as it was Wales) and this was at the end of a very long season, his first real one. Of course it was way too soon.

But unless he’s spectacularly dense (I really don’t think he is) it will also have been brilliant for his overall development. He’ll have seen first hand what it takes and probably been told fairly bluntly where he needs to improve. I think he’s competitive and smart enough to take those lessons on board.

Yep, he’s down the pecking order a bit at the moment with Earl one of those ahead of him. But I’m not staking my house on it being that way in 18 months.
 
Rugbyfan564 said:
www.telegraph.co.uk

Lions fallout has left Borthwick with an almighty England midfield headache

Residual feeling of tour to Australia is one of falling short and one that leaves England with more questions than answers
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
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Meh.
You're not going to learn anything by starting Ford or Farrell - but you keep Ford around anyway, as 3rd choice, and coach. Might do the same for Farrell.
But you start the kids, and if you've both Smiths, you don't even need Owen on the bench for versatility - I don't like it, but Marcus is considered to cover 2 positions. If Donoghue continues his form (and selection) for Bath, then he also enters the equation as a (genuinely) versatile option, custom-made for the 23 shirt

.FH: FSmith > MSmith > Ford > Farrell
..IC: SAtkinson > Ojomoh > Dingwall > Farrell
OC: Beard > Dingwall > Ojomoh > Northmore

If the youngsters fail, and the oldies are still fit, they can slot in relatively seamlessly (Ford certainly, can slip into a gameplan built around Fin. Farrell... less so, ad FH or IC - but then, Marcus can't really slot into a Fin gameplan either, so they'd both be a PlanB, whilst Ford can slot in as starter with PlanA)
 
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Which Tyler said:
Meh.
You're not going to learn anything by starting Ford or Farrell - but you keep Ford around anyway, as 3rd choice, and coach. Might do the same for Farrell.
But you start the kids, and if you've both Smiths, you don't even need Owen on the bench for versatility - I don't like it, but Marcus is considered to cover 2 positions. If Donoghue continues his form (and selection) for Bath, then he also enters the equation as a (genuinely) versatile option, custom-made for the 23 shirt

.FH: FSmith > MSmith > Ford > Farrell
..IC: SAtkinson > Ojomoh > Dingwall > Farrell
OC: Beard > Dingwall > Ojomoh > Northmore

If the youngsters fail, and the oldies are still fit, they can slot in relatively seamlessly (Ford certainly, can slop into a gameplan built around Fin. Farrell... less so, ad FH or IC - but then, Marcus can't really slot into a Fin gameplan either, so they'd both be a PlanB, whilst Ford can slot in as starter with PlanA)
Click to expand...
based on this summer, Northmore is probably further up that OC list in Borthwick's mind
 
Which Tyler said:
Meh.
You're not going to learn anything by starting Ford or Farrell - but you keep Ford around anyway, as 3rd choice, and coach. Might do the same for Farrell.
But you start the kids, and if you've both Smiths, you don't even need Owen on the bench for versatility - I don't like it, but Marcus is considered to cover 2 positions. If Donoghue continues his form (and selection) for Bath, then he also enters the equation as a (genuinely) versatile option, custom-made for the 23 shirt

.FH: FSmith > MSmith > Ford > Farrell
..IC: SAtkinson > Ojomoh > Dingwall > Farrell
OC: Beard > Dingwall > Ojomoh > Northmore

If the youngsters fail, and the oldies are still fit, they can slot in relatively seamlessly (Ford certainly, can slop into a gameplan built around Fin. Farrell... less so, ad FH or IC - but then, Marcus can't really slot into a Fin gameplan either, so they'd both be a PlanB, whilst Ford can slot in as starter with PlanA)
Click to expand...
Agree that Northmore is ahead of Ojomoh at least.

I'd say based on Borthwick and with everyone fully fit.
FH: FSmith > Ford > Farrell > MSmith
IC: SAtkinson > Farrell > Slade > Dingwall > Ojomoh
OC: Lawrence >Slade > Northmore > Ojomoh > Beard

I think Marcus is now seen more as a full back/utility back and has dropped down the order at FH. I could also see Ford starting the autumn games especially if world cup draws are on the line, depends how Fin plays when he comes back.
At 12, tbh I could even see Farrell starting if Borthwick reverts to his negative thinking. I still think Slade is an option for Borthwick, but I may be wrong.
At 13, Lawrence is still definitely the best starter, no one has really played better. Will depend on how he is after his injury. Beard was on tour and didn't play so I guess he's dropped down the order. I reckon in the autumn it will either be Slade or Northmore.
Could also see a 6:2 bench with Farrell covering the backs as much as I would hate to see it.
 
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Not Mike Brown's Sock said:
based on this summer, Northmore is probably further up that OC list in Borthwick's mind
Click to expand...
I was talking about my preference, rather than Borthwick's - he could well have my FH list in complete reverse
When compiling that, I put him down purely due to age - I just think he's more-or-less done with growing as a player, whilst the other 3 have another gear (or two) in them.
Absent that, it's pretty even across all 4 of them for OC.

Equally, I'm not including the likes of Slade (past time to move on) or Lawrence (injured for the AIs) in my list; or even some of the younger contenders (Hartley, Joseph etc) who might come good before RWC27

ETA: And having just checked - whilst Northmore is 28, and it feels like he's been around forever, he's on 56 starts total - so I am being unfair above in thinking he's finished developing.
So yeah. Absolutely bump him up the list
 
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Posted this on another forum last week:

I feel like the Farrell scenario is a good test of Borthwick's strength of character.

I hope, he takes a bigger picture view and sees that reintroducing Farrell would be a backwards step.

I'm also hoping that this is where the rest period from the Lions tour plays its part.

As it stands, Ford is the only one of the four 10s who'll have any time to build form before the AIs. After his performances (and leadership) over the summer, he deserves to start. Even more so if he's playing well and the others only have a couple of games under their belt.

I'd have him starting in the AIs and let form be the decider on the ranking behind him. F. Smith is the most likely to take the shirt, but I feel like he needs to earn it back. Same goes for Marcus.

The bottom line is, 10 is not a problem position. We don't need Farrell there so let's draw a line under it and accept his time has passed.

Obviously 12 might be regarded as more of an issue, but after a tour where it looks like we have viable long term solutions to a long term problem, selecting Farrell as a centre would be a shockingly poor decision.

As with Ford, Atkinson and Ojomoh will be playing more quickly than Farrell so if they can pick up where they left off, there would be no justification to pick him.
 
Which Tyler said:
When compiling that, I put him down purely due to age - I just think he's more-or-less done with growing as a player, whilst the other 3 have another gear (or two) in them.
Absent that, it's pretty even across all 4 of them for OC.

Equally, I'm not including the likes of Slade (past time to move on) or Lawrence (injured for the AIs) in my list; or even some of the younger contenders (Hartley) who might come good before RWC27
Click to expand...
For me, I'd love it if Borthwick went with this thinking. I just don't see it happening. While England have had some good wins recently I still get the perception that he's too afraid to take huge risks and will revert to safe, negative thinking in a tight spot.
 
Bringing Farrell back is hard no for me, but I’d also leave out Slade. Northmore and Ojomoh can keep 13 covered until Lawrence is fit and playing well enough to reclaim the shirt. Beard not getting much game time suggests to me he’s a bit down the pecking order.

Will Joseph’s move to Gloucester is interesting for me. He has lots of untapped potential and is still very young. On paper, he and Atkinson look like an excellent pairing and if that partnership lives up to it’s potential it could extend to England.
 
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