England vs New Zealand - 15/11/2025

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Beauden Barrett definitely isn't the best 10 to play since Carter, like I think picking between him and Dan Biggar in their primes cones totally down to who you have around them, both Wales and NZ would have been worse off if they'd swapped nationalities at the age of 18. An absolute weapon in 2016 and 2017 when NZ were mostly still so dominant they could afford a luxury player at 10 but I can't really remember him ever grinding it out in that position.

15 is a different story, he was so so good on his day. Don't think NZ beat us in the last world cup with anyone else at 15, the way he could diffuse an attack or start one of his own with fairly subtle contributions whilst also being a gamebreaking threat himself was magic.

Tangentially, what's Richie Mo'unga's story? Missing link if I've ever seen one

Completely agree with this Mo’unga is the obvious 10, BB 15 and Dmac as 22

Mo’unga has the control game neither BB and DM have

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I think this is fair.

Borthwick is lucky enough to have got the job when England have the biggest glut of talented attacking backs I can remember and he was very slow to realise this. However, he's starting to utilise them well now. The forwards are also a very good pack, if less exceptional, and they're going well too. The conveyor belt of talent looks solid.

I think we have some very good backs, one or two who have some stardust. Still question marks over centre, FB and back up SH. But way more importantly I think they finally have a coach who knows what he’s doing.

I think our forwards are the real strength though and is it coincidence that the upturn has come at the same time as the development of 2 solid front rows after years of propping neglect? Obvs worries about 3rd choice hooker and second row depth but like the front row we can put out a couple of back rows with little drop off in quality. (I don’t like the concepts of it being a ‘squad game’ or 6:2 but that’s the world we live in and we’re dealing with it).

When everything’s shaken down I suspect we’ll find the Boks out ahead with us and France leading the chasers. The 6N organisers already sussed that - Le Crunch is the final game and it could easily be a GS showdown.

 

[Crash Hamster]

I'm not disagreeing at all, but I'm also not suggesting that we've got the best backline I can remember. What I'm saying is specifically that we've got a glut of talented attacking backs. Just look at the Bath, Saints and (young) Sarries backs, with contributions from Gloucester (at least one Atkinson), Quins and Sale. We certainly have the greatest depth of 10s I can remember.

I'm not sure Borthwick is such a top coach that he can get the blend of personnel and gameplan right (at present). Maybe Lee Blackett will be able to pull it off for him. The players are certainly good enough to chuck it around like France and need to be empowered to do so...

(Disclaimer: I'm not one to believe that someone is either brilliant or rubbish. I'm happy to acknowlege that there have been vast improvements since Borthwick started. It's probably the Pollock Effect )

 

[NickBD]

Sodeke by far is the most promising lock imo

Agreed. He is progressing too and actually advanced since the u20s WC. Kpoku however, Im basing this only on the u20s 6N and last world cup it felt like he went backwards. But I don't watch Racing weekly maybe someone can educate me on that.

 

[BrokenWing]

Ardie isn't the problem, the problem is they expect him to save them from everything

Can't remember who it was that made that point on a podcast I was listening to (Ben Youngs possibly)

They were saying for large parts of the game they couldn't really see what the Abs were trying to do and it looked like they were just relying on one of them to produce a bit of magic.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Ardie isn't the problem, the problem is they expect him to save them from everything

Same with BB (although maintain he's a 15 first really)

They can pull off performances that no one else can, so people just get lazy and expect it from them in general.

Let's be real and coaching has been a big issue Foster wasn't great and Robertson is finding out super rugby is a very different thing to international

id go further and say our game plan is and has been for the last few years...just expect these guys to do somethign amazing....from anywhere on the pitch....and were now several years down that track and theyre older and slower and less liely to actually do these amazing thigns....and we dont have a plan B....so we **** can others for not being what they were 6-7 years ago

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Can't remember who it was that made that point on a podcast I was listening to (Ben Youngs possibly)

They were saying for large parts of the game they couldn't really see what the Abs were trying to do and it looked like they were just relying on one of them to produce a bit of magic.

everyone....everyone has been saying it... its the most obvious thing in the world....fozzie and now razor buy into the idea of just getting the 15 highest rated players on the pitch, thats why we see less specialisation, you have 3 good fullbacks and no midfielders?......one of them is a midfielder now...and it doesnt matter because they'll just play like another 15...thats why we've seen us running out with 3 openside flankers....and if you dont have a real gameplan then it doesnt really matter which position most people are playing....just go nuts

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Completely agree with this Mo'unga is the obvious 10, BB 15 and Dmac as 22

Mo'unga has the control game neither BB and DM have

except we've tried this and it was much the same as BB and DMac....one or two momenta of brilliance...surrounded by 78mins of chaotic unpredictable chucking the ball around

there are good reasons mounga would get rotated in and out for BB and Dmac....none of them were consistently good enough at 10

over the last 6 years we're averaging nearly 4 losses a year, the 20 years before that average 1.5 losses a year.....Dmac, Savea, BB and mounga (baring his current sabbatical) have been constant selections over the last 6 years

I also have little respect for Mounga because he was asked to come back last year...and then this year...but refused and would only accept swanning in just before the next world cup like his presences was all thats was needed to win

its the definition of insanity to keep trying the same things expecting different outcomes

 

[Ddanno]

To ask the obvious question, how much is down to a fade in the ABs squad and how much is down to teams such as Ireland, France and especially SA and Argentina improving and surprising them with that?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

To ask the obvious question, how much is down to a fade in the ABs squad and how much is down to teams such as Ireland, France and especially SA and Argentina improving and surprising them with that?

i should be clear, all those teams have improved, im not taking credit away from them and saying us losing is just because we let them

 

[Ddanno]

i should be clear, all those teams have improved, im not taking credit away from them and saying us losing is just because we let them

I wasn't implying that mate, just curious about how it's seen over there as I don't watch a lot of NZ rugby

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I wasn't implying that mate, just curious about how it's seen over there as I don't watch a lot of NZ rugby

i think most people happily acknowledge other teams improvement, a lot of our personal annoyance comes down to not adapting to those improvements

 

[IT157]

It is honestly better for world rugby when one team is not so dominant.

I know people say South Africa are on a different tier, but they only won the Rugby Championship on points difference.

They are the best team in the world, but not a different tier imo (like pervious All Black sides were).

 

[Zed]

To ask the obvious question, how much is down to a fade in the ABs squad and how much is down to teams such as Ireland, France and especially SA and Argentina improving and surprising them with that?

A bit of both I guess. I remember not that long ago the Crusaders having 5 ABs on the bench as well as 15 in the starting XV. The ABs bench would be littered with guys with 50+ caps. They just don't seem to have the depth any more. I know the Wallabies don't. We get a few injuries and we're calling up guys that are closing in on 40. (age not caps).

But also a lot of teams have steadily improved especially the tier 2 teams like Argentina (tier 1 now?) Fiji, Japan etc. Plus I think the AB's have lost that psychological edge they had where most teams were beaten before they took the park. Teams know now they are beatable, they are human.

Re player depth, I don't know about NZ, but in Australia we lose a lot of schoolboy union players to league. Union just does not have the money. 18 year old are being offered $300k to go to an NRL team whereas they might be offered $40k to go to a Super franchise. I don't know how many of youse watch league, but Australia has an embarrassment of riches. The Wallabies could be turned in to one of the best teams in the world if we could plunder the NRL ranks, but the ARU are broke! There's probably 50+ NRL players that could walk straight in to the Wallabies starting XV.

 

[Zed]

It is honestly better for world rugby when one team is not so dominant.

I know people say South Africa are on a different tier, but they only won the Rugby Championship on points difference.

They are the best team in the world, but not a different tier imo (like pervious All Black sides were).

I think you're right. It's **** when Italy beat the Wallabies, but in a way its good for world rugby. This is the most even its ever been in world rugby.

 

[Saintjay]

To ask the obvious question, how much is down to a fade in the ABs squad and how much is down to teams such as Ireland, France and especially SA and Argentina improving and surprising them with that?

Bit of both i think. 2012-15 All Blacks were on a different level. They have now gone from brilliant to good. With a few other teams moving up to good as well.

It's then a battle of consistency. If SA beat Ireland this weekend i feel it comfortably puts them above everyone else. They'd have beaten everyone close to them recently other than England.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

except we've tried this and it was much the same as BB and DMac....one or two momenta of brilliance...surrounded by 78mins of chaotic unpredictable chucking the ball around

there are good reasons mounga would get rotated in and out for BB and Dmac....none of them were consistently good enough at 10

over the last 6 years we're averaging nearly 4 losses a year, the 20 years before that average 1.5 losses a year.....Dmac, Savea, BB and mounga (baring his current sabbatical) have been constant selections over the last 6 years

I also have little respect for Mounga because he was asked to come back last year...and then this year...but refused and would only accept swanning in just before the next world cup like his presences was all thats was needed to win

its the definition of insanity to keep trying the same things expecting different outcomes

I mean you got to a rwc final and lost to the best team in the world with arguably a coach who should never have been a Head coach

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

To ask the obvious question, how much is down to a fade in the ABs squad and how much is down to teams such as Ireland, France and especially SA and Argentina improving and surprising them with that?

I mean but isn’t that just highlighting the point. The game evolves and NZ haven’t had the head coaches who can evolve with the game

Like SA try all kinds of crazy stuff inbetween world cups, NZ look like they are weighed down by their expectations. What they are trying isn’t working but they don’t want to risk alternatives

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

It is honestly better for world rugby when one team is not so dominant.

I know people say South Africa are on a different tier, but they only won the Rugby Championship on points difference.

They are the best team in the world, but not a different tier imo (like pervious All Black sides were).

But they won it whilst trying so many different players in their backline
They had Pollard, Libbok and SFM all start at 10 for example

Like they will play players in their 30's in new positions flankers at hooker, centres at flankers etc etc

No other team tries that in meaningful games like Rassie does and tbf he's earned that right due to his RWC success.

I wish Borthwick would actually play Pollock in the backs if he is covering there off the bench not start him but give him like 30 minutes in wing or centre v Argentina

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

But they won it whilst trying so many different players in their backline
They had Pollard, Libbok and SFM all start at 10 for example

Like they will play players in their 30's in new positions flankers at hooker, centres at flankers etc etc

No other team tries that in meaningful games like Rassie does and tbf he's earned that right due to his RWC success.

I wish Borthwick would actually play Pollock in the backs if he is covering there off the bench not start him but give him like 30 minutes in wing or centre v Argentina

Yep, SA are comfortably the best team on the world and winning isn't their priority right now. They are always gearing towards the next world cup.