Enough resources available to players?

[Cashy]

With the up and coming 6 Nations there has been a lot of discussion over who will perform. Having watched and studied the World Champions New Zealand I have noticed they are very good at talent identification and picking up players that show promise from outside the systems. For example Dan Carter never made the New Zealand school boys but he has gone on to be one of the best fly halfs in the world.

The questions I have are within our countries participating in the 6 Nations do we have the ability to pick up and develop players outside of age grade teams or our current rep fixtures?

Do our players have enough resources, coaches and a good enough pathway to improve?

I have heard our youth development selectors picking players ahead of others purely on size! No mention of ability, grit, heart or potential.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this....

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

As someone coming through the age groups for county in England, I can confirm that talent is never picked up later in life. Almost always, if you don't make age-group sides early on (16 at the latest) you're getting no where and will never be looked at again.
And yes, the second part about players being picked on size alone is also true. At a trial I went to recently, going for the 7 spot were 3 people. One was huge, over 6 foot (This is U15s btw) and weighed about 14 1/2 stone. He carried like an animal but nothing else. The 2 others were classic 7s, both made lots of turnovers (1 of them got 5 turnovers in a 20 minute game) and lots of tackles (the big guy btw, got bumped off 4 times). Guess who got the starting 7 spot? the behemoth who had the skill level of a door knob. This is just one example of many (another is our obsession with having huge 12s instead of ones with any play-making ability).This is why Northern hemisphere sides are failing. It's all good and well have 20 stone monsters like the Vunipola brothers, but if you don't have any players with some level of skill (the Pococks or Mccaws of the world) you're going to get screwed. Just my opinion.

 

[Cashy]

Is there no other pathway for a player in England that doesn't get picked up at age grade? Can he play club rugby and be picked up later?
It seems like in Scotland a lot of young guys are invested in early and are persisted with ahead of better players because of the investment the Union has put into them.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Is there no other pathway for a player in England that doesn't get picked up at age grade? Can he play club rugby and be picked up later?
It seems like in Scotland a lot of young guys are invested in early and are persisted with ahead of better players because of the investment the Union has put into them.

Not really. Unless you really were truly incredible (scoring something like 5 tries a game) and you hadn't played county age group no one will take a second look at you. A broken system if you ask me. More effort needs to be put into selection other than 'show up to a trial for a couple of hours and we'll pick who we notice (the giants who can carry but have no skill or real rugby ability).'

The other thing that irritates me is the bias towards clubs. If you play for Devonport or Ivybridge (the 2 top local sides), it doesn't matter how you bad you may be, you're getting selected. And if you play for a side that isn't very good, but you're very good, you won't get noticed.

Would like to point out, this isn't the rambling of some bitter person who wasn't selected. I've been selected for my county, so this is someone who's gotten through the system and still thinks it's a pile of ****.

 

[FSM]

Interesting thread.
I think Ben Smith from the Highlanders and Otago is a classic example of talent spotting at a late age. Like Carter he missed the schoolboys teams (did you know that the NZ cricket captain kept Carter out of the No.10 Jersey?) and I think didn't even make a huge immediate impact when he started at provincial level (ITM Cup) but he kept on putting in the effort and performing well so got recognised at Super Rugby level.
Even then he toiled in relative obscurity for a while before getting the All Black's call up. I recall reading Steve Hansen saying something like 'our biggest job with Ben was convincing him that he actually deserved to be there'.
He's just so normal-looking, he doesn't look like a top level rugby player. Accordingly he has one of the best nicknames in the game - "Ben from accounts". I love that.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Sadly that just doesn't happen in the UK. There are 2 routes here, 1 is to get play for your county, region etc. and the other is to get selected for an academy (which only happens if you play for your county). If you haven't achieved either of these by 16 then your chances of playing at a professional level is gone. It's sad, and a waste of talent but it's how it is.

 

[FSM]

That is a real waste. It misses out, in particular, the slower developers - both physically and skillwise. I think NZ rugby has only recently got over its infatuation with size first selection. It's especially a problem in the Auckland area, which has the largest Polynesian population, as they seem to develop physically much earlier and therefore are more potent on the school rugby field. It's hard for any coach to overlook that if they are focussing on short-term results.

In the UK do clubs like Saracens and Wasps not have lower grade teams? Are they more like the Super Rugby franchises, which only have the main team plus sometimes a development one?

 

[Cashy]

I guess that is why you have seen the emergence of the under 85s in Auckland. I watched a game when I was out in New Zealand. It seemed like a very good standard, skillful and fast. Its a great way to keep certain players in the game for longer even if they are not interested in pursuing a professional contract. I believe if you focus on size you miss out on talent like Carter, Cruden, Barrett, Smith etc arguably some of the best playmakers in Super Rugby.
I had the opportunity to play against Smith before he was ever noticed and within a few years with the right coaching and development he improved out of sight and his All Black selection is a result of that. Here in Scotland I see a lot of potential Scottish players that could be developed but are often over looked. If they were in some kind of system surrounded by better players and coaches I believe more young talent here would be on offer for selectors. How to tackle this is an interesting subject?