Greatest All Blacks XV of All Time

[mania]

I'd ever be able to bring my self to pick Howlett.
when you look at the caliber of guys like Kirwan,

howlett was one of the hardest working wingers out there. he inserted himself as much as possible. every touch finder he caught he would go for a quick throw in and work it back up field. as a coach i value a player of his calibre who is always trying to make plays.
he had a huge engine and scored so many tries because he was always backing up.
ok i'm gonna get lynched again but kirwins latter career wasnt that great, imo. upto 1990 he was awesome, but after that he was missing a lot. we now know it was because of his depression but at the time i thought he was just being lazy and avoiding work.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

IMO, when Kirwan was in the ABs, especially during his prime, he was a class above all his contemporaries. This was never the case with Howlett. I hear what you're saying with Howlett re. his work rate etc., and for sure that made him a very valuable player and a guy you'd always want on your side, but for me he never had that extra level of class to him that separated him as a truly great player. I believe Kirwan had that, and was a fantastic performer for long enough to be considered one of our 2 greatest right wingers alongside Goldie.
As for Goldie vs Kirwan, for me that was a genuine 50/50 call. I think I only ended up going with Kirwan because he is the ABs top try scorer of all time, but I'd be more than happy either way.

 

[mania]

Kirwan was a class above all his contemporaries. I think I only ended up going with Kirwan because he is the ABs top try scorer of all time

i agree kirwin was all class in his prime and incomparable, but i'd still go with goldie. who not only scored tries but created opportunities for others...mainly cullen.
top try scorer for ABs is howlett (49) , then cullen (46) and rocketMan rokocoko (46)
goldie btw is on 44.
julianSavea sits on 45

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

i agree kirwin was all class in his prime and incomparable, but i'd still go with goldie. who not only scored tries but created opportunities for others...mainly cullen.

Yup, and that's fair enough. Like I said, I'm happy either way. Can't argue against Wilson.

top try scorer for ABs is howlett (49) , then cullen (46) and rocketMan rokocoko (46)
goldie btw is on 44.
julianSavea sits on 45

That's for test matches, I'm talking about all ABs tries (including those from non-tests), because obviously tests used to be a lot less frequent, but roughly the same amount of overall matches were still played, so I think it's a bit of a fairer comparison. I know Kirwan is the ABs top overall try scorer, from memory I think he had 67, with BG Williams right behind him on 66, and then a bit of a drop off to the rest. I think Cullen was 3rd, and then the likes of Howlett, Rockococo, Savea etc. were a bit further down at about 10th.

 

[Bob]

yeah nah. jonah was the most sensational but he wasnt the best. he scored some amazing tries, but only against the english. he didnt score the most tries.
never scored against the boks who never really fell for his star status. chesterWilliams in his book said they never discussed jonah at their trainings. they were too busy keeping an eye on what goldie and cullen were doing.
jonah was the epitome of all brawn and no (rugby) brains. he never worked to improve his craft. never learnt to tackle, i think i saw him put in 2 tackles in his career. never learned to turn and chase, or catch high balls.
never learnt to insert himself into the game. he would seagull on his wing waiting for the ball to come to him.
i'd go to ABs and hurricanes game and watch him and he would stand around a lot doing nothing.
jonahs latter half of his ABs career he rested on his laurels was selected on reputation imo. we now know it was because of his health.
just my opinion. if i had seen evidence that he worked on his game to be better then i would be a fan.
jonah was the best offensive winger of all time to make the ABs, probably the greatest ABs offensive player.
solely my opinion and willing to be shouted down, which i have been all these years, but its how i feel.

To say lomu never worked on his game just sounds like ignorant hate. Idk what you have against the guy but the dude had a horrible kidney condition and was still able to be amazing. He probs had it harder than anyone, but still managed to be the most devastating player ever. Tackling wasn't his strong suit, but nobody's perfect. Take the guy for what he was - An absolute freak of nature, the most devastaing player ever seen and the greatest winger of all time

 

[mania]

sounds like ignorant hate.

think what u will. if u think its ignorant hate then you didnt read the respect i paid lomu as the most devastating offensive winger the ABs ever had.
i pointed out my opinion and that all it is. my opinion.
but hey read what you will. dont take offense because your opinion means nothing to me

 

[Ground We Won]

1. Tony Woodcock
2. Sean Fitzpatrick
3. Carl Hayman
4. Brodie Retallick
5. Colin Meads
6. Michael Jones
7. Richie McCaw
8. Buck Shelford
9. Sid Going
10. Dan Carter
11. Jonah Lomu
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
14. John Kirwan
15. Christian Cullen

On the bank; 16. Olo Brown 17. Dane Coles 18. Owen Franks 19. Ian Jones 20. Zinzan Brooke 21. Aaron Smith 22. Grant Fox 23. Ben Smith.

^ Bloody hell, what a team. So many great names left of it as well.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

1. Tony Woodcock
2. Sean Fitzpatrick
3. Carl Hayman
4. Brodie Retallick
5. Colin Meads
6. Michael Jones
7. Richie McCaw
8. Buck Shelford
9. Sid Going
10. Dan Carter
11. Jonah Lomu
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
14. John Kirwan
15. Christian Cullen

On the bank; 16. Olo Brown 17. Dane Coles 18. Owen Franks 19. Ian Jones 20. Zinzan Brooke 21. Aaron Smith 22. Grant Fox 23. Ben Smith.

^ Bloody hell, what a team. So many great names left of it as well.

Personally that's my favourite XV that anyone else has offered up on this thread. I find myself pretty much agreeing with every selection except for Smith at 13, but even then it's hard to argue...
And you're right about the amount of greats that have been left out lol, it's crazy! Actually, just to illustrate that point, imma put together a 2nd XV to my original side... Here goes...
1. Tony Woodcock
2. Dane Coles
3. Wilson Whineray
4. Ian Jones
5. Stan Meads
6. Jerry Collins
7. Michael Jones
8. Buck Shelford
9. Graham Bachop
10. Andrew Merthens
11. Brian Williams
12. Walter Little
13. Tana Umaga
14. Jeff Wilson
15. George Nepia

Hell, could put together a 3rd and 4th XV and they'd still look just as good. There have been so many legends over the years...

 

[The Jones Boy]

Pinetree would have belted both of them onto their backside as the lineout was forming.
He would have been caught on camera and banned for a lengthy period and given up the clean modern game in a hurry.

For me, Michael Jones, the Jones Boy, will forever be not just our greatest no.7 but our greatest ever player.
I trained alongside him in the Auck University gym in the 1980's when he started his law degree and he was frighteningly strong for a no.7
I didn't know him on a personal level but I knew who he was, he was already famous, our lecture schedule must have been similar.
We would nod at each other but rarely spoke. We were there to train.
His leg press warm up was to get all the weights possible and load them onto the leg press to warm up, then he would get his mates to sit on the press, on top of the weights.
It was staggering and then you saw his leg strength on the ball and it's no surprise he was so incredible for so long.

 

[mania]

Pinetree would have belted both of them onto their backside as the lineout was forming. He would have been caught on camera and banned for a lengthy period and given up the clean modern game in a hurry.

For me, Michael Jones, the Jones Boy, will forever be not just our greatest no.7

pinetree played in a different era. people make out that pinetree was the only dirty player in history but he grew up in an environment where you had make your mark or you would be targeted all day. look at richies career where there's heaps more scrutiny yet you see how many times he was illegally targeted.

michaelJones could dunk. i met michaelJones at a hotel i was working at. i was in the elevator and he got in. i turned to him and asked if i could his shake his hand. he looked embarrassed but shook my mitt. we had a quick chat and he talked me out of putting money on him for the first scoring play. ice being ice played it down with humility and said i'd be better off putting my money on the backs as the way the game was structured forwards hardly ever got tries anymore.
silly me believed him and he went and scored the first try for that bledisloe game.

 

[Eesah Isaacs]

Here's my XV :
1. Tony Woodcock
2. Sean Fitzpatrick
3. Olo Brown
4. Brodie Retallick
5. Colin Meads
6. Jerry Collins
7. Richie McCaw (c)
8. Kieran Read
9. Aaron Smith
10. Dan Carter
11. Jonah Lomu
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
14. John Kirwan
15. Damian McKenzie

Sub:
Brad Thorn

Go ahead and scrutinise me!

 

[Jack Reacher]

I was thinking about Doug Howlett the other day when some writer claimed he was underrated. I watch pretty much every AB test and I cant really remember a 'brilliant' try amongst his 49. I can recall plenty from Kirwan, Wilson, Rocokoko, Lomu and Savea.

 

[Dan54]

Yep they all just our opinions I know, and a lot depends on our age and who we saw play. I agree that Robertson has to be 13, in fact when I first saw Conrad I thought he reminded me a bit of Robertson, but Robertson was bloody quick. Also any backline would probably need some mention of Chris Laidlaw who really set the standard for passing at 9. also honourable mention at 9 probably to Lochore, was a great cover defender.So many others kind of spring to mind ,but wouldn't argue a hell of a lot with first team mentioned Not sure I have ever considered Brad Thorn an all time great, or for that matter Doug Howlett, bloody good players but not all time greats as I recall.
Do tend to think in my time Richie and Colin Meads are 2 that stand out as all timers!

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

15. Damian McKenzie

Really?