Italy’s future in 6N

[Quel Carreleur]

SARU has wanted to join the 6N since at least 2018. At this point I think it's the six nations feeling it is in their best financial interests to keep things the same.

Way longer than that, I think

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

Way longer than that, I think

probably, 2018 is just when I heard confirmation from #sources

 

[Quel Carreleur]

probably, 2018 is just when I heard confirmation from #sources

This was the earliest one I could find in a 3-minute-google
https://www.reuters.com/article/rugby-australia-sanzar-idUKSP41369820090506May 2009

My memory suggests that basically every time the SANZAR TV deals were up for renewal, the Saffers threw their weight around and started talks with the 6N and ERC/EPRC

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

wasn't their also a rainbow cup thing with the premiership bandied about at one point? From my point of view it's less a negotiation tactic and more they want to leave but they don't want to pay for breaching their contracts with Sanzaar. They feel they fit much better with European rugby ecosystem. Timezones are better, their schools already have relationships with French and English clubs, and their referees get to compete with the lolURC refs for premier matches.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

More noise in the papers this morning about the Boks wanting to join.

Irrespective of how Ita are performing I cannot begin to say how much I dislike that prospect in itself and what it may subsequently lead to. The 6N works as it is (although we’d all like to see Ita improve) precisely because it’s a local dust up with a splash of history. It’s not really about quality of rugby or rankings or global calendars.

But money will talk, it always does although they should be very wary of changing a winning formula. I can just about cope with seeing Tik Tok emblazoned on match balls if the trade off is retaining the status quo.

 

[Geordie]

Meh....Italy are getting their ground roots sorted....looks like they have a few crackers coming through in the U20.

Id rather bring Georgia in and make a 7n than bring SA in.

 

[ncurd]

Timezones are better for SA but what does European rugby get out of it?

Better competition, and?

SA will bring in more money but they'll want a larger slice of the pie than Italy does. Does that mean actual less money for the other 5 nations?
Flight time in terms of logistics is bad for the teams and nature of the 6 Nations you switching out a Scottish flight of 3 hours to Rome to 11-14 hours to Cape Town.
There's less chance they'd win.
The different hemisphere makes a difference on playing conditions.

As noted this keeps on coming up I doubt the 6 nations will ever let non-European team in and its probably already getting its maximum money whilst remaining on FTA television.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

7 nations for me doesn’t work.

The only way I would take SA in the comp is if the extra funding goes into pumping up the infrastructure of countries like Germany, Netherlands etc with the aim of in the end getting a big European competition like the Euros.

 

[Geordie]

7 nations for me doesn’t work.

The only way I would take SA in the comp is if the extra funding goes into pumping up the infrastructure of countries like Germany, Netherlands etc with the aim of in the end getting a big European competition like the Euros.

Exactly!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Give me two of Spain, Georgia, Romania, USA or Portugal first.

I don't want 7 and I don't want an even more luck of the draw reliant tournament that SA would bring (they'd win it every year they have three home fixtures realistically)

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Give me two of Spain, Georgia, Romania, USA or Portugal first.

I don't want 7 and I don't want an even more luck of the draw reliant tournament that SA would bring (they'd win it every year they have three home fixtures realistically)

IMO it should be Spain and Portugal from a commercial pov but people would riot if not Georgia.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

IMO it should be Spain and Portugal from a commercial pov but people would riot if not Georgia.

Yeah as a match going fan I'd want those two and not Georgia at all but I definitely agree Georgia are more deserving.

Equally I don't think Georgia have earned it, they're yet to beat a 6n team. Italy were beating us for fun in the 90s and probably would have had a top half finish or two had the 6 team tournament been formed then.

 

[WaterboySA]

Alpha what if SA plays their home games in the UK?To be honest I would not expect the 6N to allow SA into the competition.Only way for the other countries to make money is if SA shared income only from their own games(gate fees and broadcast). Will never happen.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Alpha what if SA plays their home games in the UK?To be honest I would not expect the 6N to allow SA into the competition.Only way for the other countries to make money is if SA shared income only from their own games(gate fees and broadcast). Will never happen.

I guess that'd be fine but awful for you guys and I can't see that being better for SA rugby than what you have now.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Ultimately if rugby wants to survive, they need to grow beyond their own little club but it seems the powers that be want to keep it exclusive. Georgia dominate the 2nd tier of European rugby and yet are useless against the 6N teams. Even Italy could beat them. From a revenue standpoint, Georgia brings a lot less to the table than Italy and who would rather go to Tbilisi than Rome?

I don't think Italy are a good fit for the 6N, they are just too uncompetitive. However I don't think SA would work in the tournament either. They would up the challenge of the tournament but it would likely be even more detrimental in the long term as the growth of Italy would cease and rugby would have firmly established itself as a closed shop with zero interest in expanding globally beyond the established nations.

Really the 2nd tier needs more funding and being televised alongside the 6N and then look at long term solutions as mentioned above such as Spain, Netherlands, Romania, Georgia and Germany.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

South Africa joining the 6N is a solution looking for a problem, and failing to find one; and doesn't really do anyone any good.

The problem with the 6N, as has been mentioned repeatedly, is that it's a closed shop; but the solution is tough to find.
6 is plenty of teams already, and I don't think the tounie could cope with expanding to 8, or any odd number.

So promotion/relegation is the only answer - but bring the question of "but how"
For home & away fixtures to even out, it needs to be every 2 years; but even then, every 4 would be better to allow the promoted team a chance to get their feet under the table - which would effectively kill the relegated team down to, at best, the level Georgia currently occupy - comfortably better than every else, but nowhere near good enough to challenge the top tier.
So it kinda has to be a play-off between the bottom of the 6N and the top of the ENC - to be fair, it needs to be home and away; or at least, at a neutral venue. Which means you need to find space in the calendar. That space needs to be found for every team in the 6N in case they suffer a terrible run and end up last. That space simply doesn't exist in an already congested fixture.

It's also pointless aiming for a top-down approach, greater investment and encouragement is needed at the age-grade and club level of the lower tiers in Europe. Which is tough as hell, and beyond the remit of the 6N comittee.

I think the easiest, viable change might be to expansion of the U20s 6N and allow promotion within the EPRC (is the 3rd tier of that even running still?)

 

[retired9]

I can's say SA joining the 6N has any appeal for me at all, it is a European tournament and part of the success of the concept is that the competing nations are really neighbours, geographically and culturally close with historic rivalry predating rugby by centuries. Once this gets expanded too far it begins to feel too World Cup like for me and we already have one of those.

I also would like to see some way of getting towards a "Euros" rugby tournament, although how this would sit with the 6N is probably impossible. The reality would be that it would be the same 6N teams competing at the finals anyway.

A worthwhile project surely is to encourage big sporting nations like Germany/Spain/Netherlands in particular to catch up? There is no reason why a country like Germany couldn't be a big force in rugby if the sport was built up. Maybe some touring exhibitions from the existing 6N teams could help?

 

[Becca]

Just no !
The idea of SA joining has always riled me. Just because they’ve all but burnt their bridges with the rest of the SH, it doesn’t give them the right to join the 6 Nations. I’d rather keep the perennial underachievers in the mix.
As soon as this topic crops up we also have to hear how the timing has to be changed and all manner of alterations to the season get talked about.
The status quo has its faults, but this is neither a solution nor even wanted by a lot of rugby fans. For context, I can honestly say nobody I know would welcome the idea.
Also, just to clarify, SA are my second favourite international side.

 

[ChicagoKid]

I'd be genuinely surprised if Italy gets the boot for South Africa. It makes more sense to have a 7 Nations, guaranteeing that every team gets 3 home games. Plus, Italy would need to get bought out of their ownership stake, which won't be cheap. I think this is a bunch of postering currently and we end up with 7 Nations starting in 2024 or 2025.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Wouldn't be surprised if it's SA floating the rumours to put pressure on SANZAAR for when they next negotiate their membership - give us a bigger slice or we'll buy our way into the 6N instead

 

[ncurd]

I'd be genuinely surprised if Italy gets the boot for South Africa. It makes more sense to have a 7 Nations, guaranteeing that every team gets 3 home games. Plus, Italy would need to get bought out of their ownership stake, which won't be cheap. I think this is a bunch of postering currently and we end up with 7 Nations starting in 2024 or 2025.

7 Nations won't happen you have to add a week to the schedule, and the old week off bye use to cause all kinds of issues and benefits based on which team got it when.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

 

[Quel Carreleur]

Wouldn't be surprised if it's SA floating the rumours to put pressure on SANZAAR for when they next negotiate their membership - give us a bigger slice or we'll buy our way into the 6N instead

well, it would only be the 4th(?) time in a row they've done exactly that

 

[ChicagoKid]

7 Nations won't happen you have to add a week to the schedule, and the old week off bye use to cause all kinds of issues and benefits based on which team got it when.

Then change the calendar. There is a reason this is getting pushed hard: $$$. All the unions desperately need it and that’s not going to change.

 

[ncurd]

Then change the calendar. There is a reason this is getting pushed hard: $$$. All the unions desperately need it and that’s not going to change.

I've heard this talk before, I don't think the amount of money exists you think it does.

 

[ChicagoKid]

I've heard this talk before, I don't think the amount of money exists you think it does.

well, it would only be the 4th(?) time in a row they've done exactly that

There is more $$ in the North than in the South. Hence, why SARU would want to join the North. CVC wants to make a large sum of money and then exit. What better way than have SA join Six Nations and renegotiate existing broadcast deals.

Maybe it's because I am an American so I have seen this happen for decades, but this deal will get done. It makes way too much commercial sense for all parties.

 

[Becca]

There is more $$ in the North than in the South. Hence, why SARU would want to join the North. CVC wants to make a large sum of money and then exit. What better way than have SA join Six Nations and renegotiate existing broadcast deals.

Maybe it's because I am an American so I have seen this happen for decades, but this deal will get done. It makes way too much commercial sense for all parties.

I want doesn’t always get.

 

[ncurd]

There is more $$ in the North than in the South. Hence, why SARU would want to join the North. CVC wants to make a large sum of money and then exit. What better way than have SA join Six Nations and renegotiate existing broadcast deals.

Maybe it's because I am an American so I have seen this happen for decades, but this deal will get done. It makes way too much commercial sense for all parties.

I understand why SARU would want to join. But where's the money for RFU, FRU, IRFU, WRU, SRU and IRU? They already get maximum amount of money out of television rights whilst remaining on the channels they are on (and that's not going to change otherwise it would happened a decade ago). It doesn't increase in value outside those markets, so you just adding an increase in value in SA. How much money is there? SA would also need to negotiate a slice of the pie so is the money they bringing larger than what they want?

The other nations just don't agree to this from a money point of view because they'll end up with less not more.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

There is more $$ in the North than in the South. Hence, why SARU would want to join the North. CVC wants to make a large sum of money and then exit. What better way than have SA join Six Nations and renegotiate existing broadcast deals.

Maybe it's because I am an American so I have seen this happen for decades, but this deal will get done. It makes way too much commercial sense for all parties.

We know why SA want to join the 6N.
What we can't see is why the 6N would want them to; though we can see an awful lot of fans who'd be upset about it.

Maybe it's because I'm British, but I've also seen this happen for decades - and so far, it's always been threats and talk from South Africa, before they sign a new deal with SANZAR. It all makes sense for 1 of the parties, but not the other 6.

 

[ChicagoKid]

I understand why SARU would want to join. But where's the money for RFU, FRU, IRFU, WRU, SRU and IRU? They already get maximum amount of money out of television rights whilst remaining on the channels they are on (and that's not going to change otherwise it would happened a decade ago). It doesn't increase in value outside those markets, so you just adding an increase in value in SA. How much money is there? SA would also need to negotiate a slice of the pie so is the money they bringing larger than what they want?

The other nations just don't agree to this from a money point of view because they'll end up with less not more.

The early reports indicate CVC is actively negotiating with TV partners as part of the proposed expansion.

We know why SA want to join the 6N.
What we can't see is why the 6N would want them to; though we can see an awful lot of fans who'd be upset about it.

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