Italy undermining the 6 Nations

[McTallshort]

Now Germany have beaten Romania they will be promoted to the six nations......

To be fair that's great news for European rugby.

 

[Osezno]

I have to admit to believing Italy should be relegated at some point but let's give COS a chance. He is trying to turn everything in Italy around and he should get at least a few years backing. This year's 6N is as competitive as I have seen it in a long time. Scotland and France are playing very well for a change and to judge Italy on this year might be a bit unfair?

Are we really judging Italy on this year? They were given a decade of test matches against the best teams in the world prior to their admission, they had 17 seasons to develop and a decade with two professional franchises. And the result is they've never made RWC quarterfinals, they've never been consistent in their results and other nations have overtaken them or create a reasonable doubt on their real level, only hidden because nobody from 6N or World Rugby wants them to play against Georgia.

No, I don't want Italy to be kicked out from 6N, but to see them prove they deserve the privilege to play at the most famous tournament in the world or leave their place to others with a brighter future.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Must be annoying to know that if Germany was winning the tier 2 comp they would be brought straight up somehow.

 

[McTallshort]

Are we really judging Italy on this year? They were given a decade of test matches against the best teams in the world prior to their admission, they had 17 seasons to develop and a decade with two professional franchises. And the result is they've never made RWC quarterfinals, they've never been consistent in their results and other nations have overtaken them or create a reasonable doubt on their real level, only hidden because nobody from 6N or World Rugby wants them to play against Georgia.

No, I don't want Italy to be kicked out from 6N, but to see them prove they deserve the privilege to play at the most famous tournament in the world or leave their place to others with a brighter future.

Yeah I hear you but for the first time they look to be trying to sort it. Don't forget a few years ago people were questioning Scotland yet now they have really turned it round.

Perhaps more financial support for the 2ND tier European rugby tournament might help

 

[ratsapprentice]

Isn't Georgia backed by a billionaire? I heard their facilities are pretty much second to none so the only way is up basically. Why should money be an excuse here?

It's not about how much money they have to spend on themselves - it's about how big the Georgian market is.

 

[barkinghooker]

Germany were 24-6 down at the half hour mark. The game is on the Rugby europe website.

38-20 down too. Left it late to snatch it.

 

[Welshdragon2000]

It's not about how much money they have to spend on themselves - it's about how big the Georgian market is.

The market in Georgia must be pretty decent though seeing as they can fill a 50,000 seater stadium. I know their market won't be anything like Germany's or Spain's must it still has good potential

 

[Car]

Speaking of Germany, I really like this DW article:
http://www.dw.com/en/german-rugby-breaking-new-ground/a-37432666

If the countries in the other tiers face relegation (even though it's no automatic relegation any more), I don't see why that should be different for the Six Nations. Had we been relegated last time around, that would have thrown us back many years, too, and it's obvious they'd like to see us develop, too. So if (potential) market size is the criterion, why does that only apply for Italy and not for e.g. Spain or us?

At least make the worst Six Nations team play a match against the best Rugby Europe team during the November series each year.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The market in Georgia must be pretty decent though seeing as they can fill a 50,000 seater stadium. I know their market won't be anything like Germany's or Spain's must it still has good potential

Italy's GDP per capita is four times higher, and it's total GDP is 62 times the size.

The amount of money from things like sponsorship and advertising is going to be minimal.

 

[Welshdragon2000]

Italy's GDP per capita is four times higher.

The amount of money from things like sponsorship and advertising is going to be minimal.

Okay fair enough although I don't think it's as bad as you make it sound

- - - Updated - - -

Speaking of Germany, I really like this DW article:
http://www.dw.com/en/german-rugby-breaking-new-ground/a-37432666

If the countries in the other tiers face relegation (even though it's no automatic relegation any more), I don't see why that should be different for the Six Nations. Had we been relegated last time around, that would have thrown us back many years, too, and it's obvious they'd like to see us develop, too. So if (potential) market size is the criterion, why does that only apply for Italy and not for e.g. Spain or us?

At least make the worst Six Nations team play a match against the best Rugby Europe team during the November series each year.

Great article in that link

 

[Osezno]

Must be annoying to know that if Germany was winning the tier 2 comp they would be brought straight up somehow.

I'm not even sure about that. Italy is a stakeholder and 6 Nations guarantees them 20 M€ per year, not even counting sponsorship deals. We're talking about three times Romanian Union budget or five times Spanish Union one.

 

[corny]

Thing is the Italians have some good players. Campagnaro, Parisse, Sarto, Furno, Ghiraldini, Mbanda, Favaro are all good players. They just have zero confidence and are too used to losing. Even Parisse wasn't interested today when things went against him. Gave up readily. Thats a problem thats going to take ages to rectify but O'Shea focusing on the absolute basics is the logical first step. Get them to a stage where they play to their potential, irrespective of the opposition or the score, and the current chorus of 'kick them out' will quieten down. They won't dominate but with the talent they have they should be competitive.

Anyone who thinks Georgia, Germany or Spain would fair any better needs their head examined. Georgia might trouble their first opponents but they'd lose their last game by 80.

 

[profitius]

Can someone explain to me why the 6 nations should be "opened up"? They've created a cash cow that keeps the northern hemisphere game going. Now because of their success they're suddenly the bad guys for wanting to protect what they've created. This socialist idea that they owe other countries entry is nonsense.

I'm not against expanding it in future but not now. Italy are a better team than Georgia and it's been mentioned already that people were saying the same about Scotland not so long ago. Scotland have improved on the back of Glasgow's improvement. Italy are basing their team off Treviso and Zebra. They should concentrate on getting them competitive first.

 

[die_mole]

Can someone explain to me why the 6 nations should be "opened up"? They've created a cash cow that keeps the northern hemisphere game going. Now because of their success they're suddenly the bad guys for wanting to protect what they've created. This socialist idea that they owe other countries entry is nonsense.

I'm not against expanding it in future but not now. Italy are a better team than Georgia and it's been mentioned already that people were saying the same about Scotland not so long ago. Scotland have improved on the back of Glasgow's improvement. Italy are basing their team off Treviso and Zebra. They should concentrate on getting them competitive first.

Umm, limiting competition and centralzing authority is socialism. Allowing teams to compete for spaces with limited barriers to entry would be free market competition.

 

[Osezno]

The difference between Scotland and Italy seems blatantly obvious: Scotland was once competitive, Italy has never been as strong a Scotland ever was. And the biggest problem regarding Italy is their youngsters don't seem to make a difference. On the contrary, it's becoming quite usual to see them be beaten by Georgia at U20 or U18 level.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

The problem i see is structural. The people who make the decision have not thought of a way to follow through and evaluate performance regrading Italy's inclusion. From a governance point of view that is not even amateur, it's blatantly ridiculous. I know a street vendor who sells bracelets on the corner who understands this better than whoever is running the 6N show. He understand, before his day even starts, he needs to sell X amount of bracelets to make the day a successful one. He has a crystal clear definition of what success means to him in terms of performance. Whoever introduced Italy to the 6N clearly does not. We've seen year after year of teams destroying Italy and things remain unchanged.

When u make a change (i.e. include a new team), you need to set yourself some sort of target, how to measure it and when to measure it.
I'd love to see under what metrics is Italy's inclusion a success story. And if we admit it is not, then what are they doing about it. I've reached the point where i don't find Italy's 6N games entertaining to watch anymore. I'd rather change the channel.

Everything i've said stands too for Argentina's inclusion in the TRC and Jaguares in SR.

 

[runningrugby]

The governance of the Six Nations is getting rather embarassing to be honest.

Something has to be done, because, at the moment, and to be quite honest, for the last five years, Italy have been an embarrassment to the tournament. It cannot be good for the development of Italian rugby or for the tournament as a whole for the team to be hammered and humiliated every week (and year upon year).

Yes, O'Shea has just taken over, but looking at the players he has available, it is not looking good. Treviso and Zebre have been the whipping boys of the Pro12, ever since they were brought in, and there does not seem to be a structure in place to bring players through, with the Italian age group sides performing worse than the senior team in terms of results (as mentioned above, they are consistently beaten by Georgia).

O'Shea needs to quickly realise that this set of players are not good enough, and even the supposedly might Parisse, is not as good as he once was. Long term planning is needed for Italy, but I just cannot see them getting any better by being on the end of an absolute hammering like they have been for the last couple of weeks, and even beyond that, the last couple of years.

Maybe take them out of the six nations and expand the lower tier game, with a possible promotion and expansion in a couple of years time (if the standard gets better).

 

[profitius]

Umm, limiting competition and centralzing authority is socialism. Allowing teams to compete for spaces with limited barriers to entry would be free market competition.

Letting a company make its own choices is capitalism. Forcing it to do things against its will is socialism.


The 6 nations is not a closed shop but they have the right to choose what's best for them.

 

[dragos03]

It's all down to economics, I'm afraid. The 6 Nations will only open up if one of the large and wealthy European nations is ready to step up.

I think Germany's win against Romania is just a freak result, they are improving but won't reach an acceptable standard soon. However, Spain's win against Russia is very significant. Spain has a lot of advantages: large country with a great tradition in team sports, can use numerous French players of Spanish heritage and the core area of French rugby is right across the border, which makes it very easy to integrate Spanish clubs into the their system. If Spain can make it to the next World Cup, I bet they will be invited to the Six Nations in record time.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

It's all down to economics, I'm afraid.

I see where you are coming from but to be honest, i am not sure i agree. Italy is killing some games for me and i am quite convince i am not the only one.

I know quite a few people who stopped watching the 6N games when Italy is playing. English do go to watch Ireland vs Wales. I see a lot of Irish watching England vs France.
When Italy plays half the people leave the pub i go to. They simply do not find it interesting enough.

I know extrapolating what i see at my local pub is clearly not a rigorous statistical exercise but it is what i see. Every weekend.

And from an entertainment point of view, i enjoyed Romania vs Germany 10x more than Italy vs Ireland.