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Izzy Folau
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<blockquote data-quote="smartcooky" data-source="post: 941197" data-attributes="member: 20605"><p>No, he's being punished for expressing objectionable ideas in public.</p><p></p><p>I can tell you for sure that if one of my employees were say what Folau has said, to one of my customers, I would fire them on the spot.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Saying it out loud <strong>is</strong> the problem and it is punishable in any reasonable society. Freedom of speech is not absolute, and it does not imply freedom from consequences of that speech.</p><p></p><p>The great jurist Oliver Wendall Holmes (Associate US Supreme Court justice 1902 to 1932) in Schenck v. United States, wrote that no free speech safeguard would cover someone <em>"falsely shouting fire in a theatre"</em>. While you might be free to shout fire in a theatre where there was no fire, you would also be held responsible for any damage, injury or death caused in the rush for patrons to get out of the theatre. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You were wrong before, and you are wrong again. If his beliefs were at issue, he would not have a contract in the first place.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Good, I like it when people do this; it makes it all that much easier to tear their arguments to shreds.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Catholic priests are employees of the Catholic Church. In expressing those beliefs they are <strong>complying with and repeating the policy</strong> of their employers.</p><p></p><p>Folau is an employee of Rugby Australia and the NSW Rugby Union. In expressing those beliefs he is <strong>going DIRECTLY AGAINST the policy</strong> of those two bodies.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, the cross/crucifix is a symbol of Christianity NOT exclusively of the Roman Catholic Church. All other Christian denominations use the crucifix or stylized versions of it as symbols of the Christianity. Some of those denominations, for example the "Community of Christ" (an offshoot of the Mormons) extend the sacrament of marriage to same-sex couples in jurisdictions where gay marriage is legal, and provide covenant commitment ceremonies where it is not legal. They also allow the ordination of gays and lesbians to the priesthood. The <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_America" target="_blank">Evangelical Lutheran Church </a>allows for LGBTQ+ marriage and ordination of LGBTQ+ clergy. Their policy states that LGBTQ+ individuals are welcome and encouraged to become members and to participate in the life of the congregation.</p><p></p><p>There, your extreme example has just been demolished.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>You're confusing these two. Freedom of worship is absolute, freedom of speech is not, it comes with constraints and responsibilities.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"Statement" is anything you say.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is simply stating that misconduct does not have to be in relation to a match to be punishable</p><p></p><p>Referee Nigel Owens is an openly gay man. This is a well known fact in rugby.</p><p></p><p>If a player were to call him a "fu<span style="color: #000000">c</span>king queer" during a match in which Owens was the referee - that is <em>"in connection with a match".</em></p><p>If a player were to call him a "fu<span style="color: #000000">c</span>king queer" in a social media post or a newspaper article - that is <em>"or otherwise".</em></p><p></p><p>Both are punishable under Regulation 20.4 (c)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If we didn't allow women to play rugby, that could be construed as sexual discrimination</p><p></p><p>We separate them into different competitions at adult level for two reasons</p><p>1. Player safety</p><p>2. The nature of the physical contact involved</p><p></p><p>I am quite sure that if I was a female prop, I would rather not have a male lock binding onto me on my side of the scrum (if you don't understand why, you've never played at prop, so ask one to explain it to you)</p><p></p><p>NOTE: In New Zealand, girls and boys play in the same teams up to U13 grade.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="smartcooky, post: 941197, member: 20605"] No, he's being punished for expressing objectionable ideas in public. I can tell you for sure that if one of my employees were say what Folau has said, to one of my customers, I would fire them on the spot. Saying it out loud [B]is[/B] the problem and it is punishable in any reasonable society. Freedom of speech is not absolute, and it does not imply freedom from consequences of that speech. The great jurist Oliver Wendall Holmes (Associate US Supreme Court justice 1902 to 1932) in Schenck v. United States, wrote that no free speech safeguard would cover someone [I]"falsely shouting fire in a theatre"[/I]. While you might be free to shout fire in a theatre where there was no fire, you would also be held responsible for any damage, injury or death caused in the rush for patrons to get out of the theatre. You were wrong before, and you are wrong again. If his beliefs were at issue, he would not have a contract in the first place. Good, I like it when people do this; it makes it all that much easier to tear their arguments to shreds. Catholic priests are employees of the Catholic Church. In expressing those beliefs they are [B]complying with and repeating the policy[/B] of their employers. Folau is an employee of Rugby Australia and the NSW Rugby Union. In expressing those beliefs he is [B]going DIRECTLY AGAINST the policy[/B] of those two bodies. No, the cross/crucifix is a symbol of Christianity NOT exclusively of the Roman Catholic Church. All other Christian denominations use the crucifix or stylized versions of it as symbols of the Christianity. Some of those denominations, for example the "Community of Christ" (an offshoot of the Mormons) extend the sacrament of marriage to same-sex couples in jurisdictions where gay marriage is legal, and provide covenant commitment ceremonies where it is not legal. They also allow the ordination of gays and lesbians to the priesthood. The [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Lutheran_Church_in_America']Evangelical Lutheran Church [/URL]allows for LGBTQ+ marriage and ordination of LGBTQ+ clergy. Their policy states that LGBTQ+ individuals are welcome and encouraged to become members and to participate in the life of the congregation. There, your extreme example has just been demolished. You're confusing these two. Freedom of worship is absolute, freedom of speech is not, it comes with constraints and responsibilities. "Statement" is anything you say. It is simply stating that misconduct does not have to be in relation to a match to be punishable Referee Nigel Owens is an openly gay man. This is a well known fact in rugby. If a player were to call him a "fu[COLOR=#000000]c[/COLOR]king queer" during a match in which Owens was the referee - that is [I]"in connection with a match".[/I] If a player were to call him a "fu[COLOR=#000000]c[/COLOR]king queer" in a social media post or a newspaper article - that is [I]"or otherwise".[/I] Both are punishable under Regulation 20.4 (c) If we didn't allow women to play rugby, that could be construed as sexual discrimination We separate them into different competitions at adult level for two reasons 1. Player safety 2. The nature of the physical contact involved I am quite sure that if I was a female prop, I would rather not have a male lock binding onto me on my side of the scrum (if you don't understand why, you've never played at prop, so ask one to explain it to you) NOTE: In New Zealand, girls and boys play in the same teams up to U13 grade. [/QUOTE]
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