June tests: What's the point?

[coonor]

Here's how each nation should approach tests; by trying to win every one of them.

I and most other Irish fans would probably much rather us develop squad depth during this tour to NZ by blooding players like Cave, Fitzpatrick and Zebo rather than risk injuring players for the unlikely cause of trying to win against the AB.

 

[antipodean]

I and most other Irish fans would probably much rather us develop squad depth during this tour to NZ by blooding players like Cave, Fitzpatrick and Zebo rather than risk injuring players for the unlikely cause of trying to win against the AB.

What depth have you developed if you could pick them anyway? Exactly what would you learn from these players' ability to perform at Test level if they're on the receiving end of floggings? You might as well pick school kids. Losing a three Test series with a points differential of >100 would suggest to me that you haven't developed anything other than further ingraining into the DNA of Irish Rugby a belief they can not beat the All Blacks.

This "squad depth" nonsense is devaluing international rugby.

 

[William18]

I and most other Irish fans would probably much rather us develop squad depth during this tour to NZ by blooding players like Cave, Fitzpatrick and Zebo rather than risk injuring players for the unlikely cause of trying to win against the AB.

So you'll just, what, give up then? The All Blacks are too good, we'll never beat them.

It'll be at least another 100 years until you beat us with that sort of attitude.

 

[Draggs]

So you'll just, what, give up then? The All Blacks are too good, we'll never beat them.

It'll be at least another 100 years until you beat us with that sort of attitude.

Mate, I don't think you realise how big the Wales/Ireland v NZ thing is.
Imagine all those World Cup chokes, and extend it to 60 years/forever.
The reaction to beating the U20s should show you how much a win (any win) over NZ means.

Every time that bloody match comes round I feel we are going to do it, and no matter how well we play (2003, 2004, 2008), it just isn't enough. That is just how good the All Blacks are; unquantifiable, but better than 99% of their opponents.

 

[coonor]

This is reality! We haven't got the depth or quality at the moment to try and win all 3 tests. Basically if we wanted to throw everything at it we would have to play our first choice team for every match which would mean none of our up and coming players would develop and we could possibly have some of our players injured especially when you take into account the intense end of season. Imagine if Ross took a serious injury and was out for the next 9 months. Ireland would wave away any grand slam chance and Leinster would likely lose their Heineken Cup. I would love for Ireland to beat the AB but you have to realise we are not as fortunate as NZ in terms of rugby and by playing our best team to win every match, which is still unlikely, is in the long term not a good idea.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

People are more likely to remember Ireland beating NZ than Ireland winning the Six Nations fifty years from now

 

[Zed]

God knows why the Irish Rugby Union agreed to play the ABS at home after a long NH season and 3 tests? Really bizarre.

 

[antipodean]

This is reality! We haven't got the depth or quality at the moment to try and win all 3 tests. Basically if we wanted to throw everything at it we would have to play our first choice team for every match which would mean none of our up and coming players would develop

What element of their play, exactly, is going to develop getting flogged? Why can't these players develop in their respective academies and clubs?

God knows why the Irish Rugby Union agreed to play the ABS at home after a long NH season and 3 tests? Really bizarre.

Because the IRB told them to, or no one would play them come November.

 

[coonor]

What element of their play, exactly, is going to develop getting flogged? Why can't these players develop in their respective academies and clubs?


Because the IRB told them to, or no one would play them come November.

Fitzpatrick was more than solid and seems to have taken to international rugby well for his first game even though we lost by over 30 points. Look at teams who often get smashed by top tier nations, they still manage to develop some world class players.

At the end of the day NZ have the the depth and we don't and until we do have that depth we will not pose a consistent threat to top teams. We need to start giving players experience and I mean propped experience of top level rugby. Why not start in this tour? The earlier we start blooding new players to create more options the sooner our time of beating the AB will be. By papering over the cracks and playing a full strength team every game will cause long term problems. Trust me we've seen it before!

 

[racingmetrofan]

I and most other Irish fans would probably much rather us develop squad depth during this tour to NZ by blooding players like Cave, Fitzpatrick and Zebo rather than risk injuring players for the unlikely cause of trying to win against the AB.

But your first choice team hasn't been able to beat the All Blacks! So squad depth will give you what? You should be building your squad FOR these type of tours, not ON them.

From a 'beating the best' perspective, you'd be better off ensuring that the Rabo was more competitive and stopping playing the old hands at club level (e.g. Ronan O'Gara) in the big games.

Otherwise you may as well not tour. NZ get 3 easy wins, Ireland get a few new guys on the bad end of a game against the best.

 

[lucky number 7]

What element of their play, exactly, is going to develop getting flogged? Why can't these players develop in their respective academies and clubs?

Because it's called a test... ever heard that to be the best you have to beat the best? Well put them up against top class opposition and see how they fare..Brian O Driscoll came on in 2000 on his Debut and we got flogged by 30 plus points...Now tell me how detrimental was that to his career?

 

[coonor]

Ok then where exactly are Ireland, given the scheduled games throughout the next year supposed to develop players and give them game time experience?

 

[big ginger 8]

But your first choice team hasn't been able to beat the All Blacks! So squad depth will give you what? You should be building your squad FOR these type of tours, not ON them.

From a 'beating the best' perspective, you'd be better off ensuring that the Rabo was more competitive and stopping playing the old hands at club level (e.g. Ronan O'Gara) in the big games.

Otherwise you may as well not tour. NZ get 3 easy wins, Ireland get a few new guys on the bad end of a game against the best.

If you think the team that played in the fist test is our first team you are horribly mistaken.

 

[antipodean]

Fitzpatrick was more than solid and seems to have taken to international rugby well for his first game even though we lost by over 30 points. Look at teams who often get smashed by top tier nations, they still manage to develop some world class players.

Fitzpatrick was solid, so what difference did it make if he was the form prop coming into the tour? Again I ask what depth? It's not like Ireland decided to play a second rate prop when they had clearly better options so that they would have "depth".

At the end of the day NZ have the the depth and we don't and until we do have that depth we will not pose a consistent threat to top teams.

At the end of the day, both teams can still only put their best 22 on the field. Depth comes into it when you need to give someone a rest or they're injured; so you select the next best cab off the rank. So why can't you try to win?

 

[racingmetrofan]

If you think the team that played in the fist test is our first team you are horribly mistaken.

When was the last time any Irish team beat the all blacks?

 

[Zed]

Because the IRB told them to, or no one would play them come November.

Really? They get no say in it?

 

[antipodean]

Because it's called a test... ever heard that to be the best you have to beat the best? Well put them up against top class opposition and see how they fare..

So why can't you try and win the Test?

Brian O Driscoll came on in 2000 on his Debut and we got flogged by 30 plus points...Now tell me how detrimental was that to his career?

He still hasn't beaten the All Blacks?

Ok then where exactly are Ireland, given the scheduled games throughout the next year supposed to develop players and give them game time experience?

You develop players in your academies, clubs and select the best for inclusion into national squads. It is only as a result of them playing that you determine if they can make the step up. It is a secondary consideration to trying to win the Test.

If you think the team that played in the fist test is our first team you are horribly mistaken.

Who was fit and available to take a position in the 22?

Really? They get no say in it?

They had a say in it in 2010 when the member unions agreed to a 10 year schedule which included the return of tours.

 

[cyRil]

When was the last time any Irish team beat the all blacks?

ooooooooooo BURN!

EDIT: 'ang on! Munster, like '78?!

 

[coonor]

You develop players in your academies, clubs and select the best for inclusion into national squads. It is only as a result of them playing that you determine if they can make the step up. It is a secondary consideration to trying to win the Test.

Yeah but the step up between club and international level is huge, especially when you consider the level of rugby Connacht play! Squad depth is much bigger than you think it is..... look at Leinster who are Ireland's team that do play high level rugby, they know the importance of their whole squad and it has paid off.

And in regards to only needing depth in order to rest players..... well surprise surprise, Ireland need to rest players and thus need to develop depth in order to be able to do that!

 

[antipodean]

Yeah but the step up between club and international level is huge, especially when you consider the level of rugby Connacht play!

And of the three Connacht players in the Irish squad, one of them was in the 22 for last weekend, so again; what development did that have?

And in regards to only needing depth in order to rest players..... well surprise surprise, Ireland need to rest players and thus need to develop depth in order to be able to do that!

That's a circular argument. You're still yet to explain why Ireland can't try to win these Tests rather than this mystical "developing depth" exercise in futility.