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International Test Matches
Lancaster = Martin Johnson
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<blockquote data-quote="Peat" data-source="post: 688421" data-attributes="member: 42330"><p>First off, I simply disagree with you on the influence an international coach can have. It is far from unknown for an international coach to take a player in indifferent form and get them motoring. </p><p></p><p>Secondly, poor performance and loss of gametime at international level can turn into a lack of confidence all round. Bad domestic form can come from a bad international scene. </p><p></p><p>To get more specific...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ben Youngs never had a decent pass. He was always a fan of bouncing bombs.</p><p></p><p>Ben Youngs K/P/R from his first 6 games of 2010 - 31/325/33 (7.9pc kicks)</p><p>Ben Youngs K/P/R from his first 6 games of 2014 - 25/286/30 (7.3pc kicks)</p><p></p><p>Ben Youngs, for Leicester, kicks less and runs more than he did in his 2010 pomp. The idea that Leicester have turned him into a kicking machine seems to be not true.</p><p></p><p>Lets examine the idea that he is a lesser sniping threat</p><p></p><p>2010 - 190 metres made, 2 line breaks, 3 defenders beaten, 1 try</p><p>2014 - 116 metres made, 2 line breaks, 6 defenders beaten, 1 try </p><p></p><p>So... maybe. He is making less metres - but is that counter-balanced by more defenders beaten? I am happy to say that he is at the least still quite a sniping threat.</p><p></p><p>Youngs has always been an off the cuff player with a sketchy pass. Not overly sure what's changed tbh, at least not for Leicester. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ashton just scored the record number of tries in a Heineken Cup campaign if memory serves. Sure, it was ideal circumstances, but that's one hell of a good going for a player who's declined and is in a team that doesn't rely on his strengths. Eight Premiership tries last season as well, not too bad either. I'd like to see what Saffycen has to say about this, because I suspect that talk of him being declined and unused for Saracens has been untrue for at least a season.</p><p></p><p>His strengths have completely and totally been ignored by England though for the entirety of Lancaster's reign. Let's not even pretend anything else has happened. He was given zero chance to fulfill the same sort of role he had previously...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>... neither was Flood. Whatever he may or may not have (such as 7 international starts at 12 prior to Johnson even taking over) he was a fantastic player on the gainline, but for that he needed runners, and Lancaster gave him none. Season right after. Foden, again, involved next season, doesn't look great. For players in decline, they've done some pretty neat stuff recently.</p><p></p><p>To be honest, I just don't buy this. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Ireland went an entire calender year beaten in 2009 - including two SANZAR games - before starting their gradual descent that ended up with them - post World Cup - losing to Scotland and Italy, and getting humped 60-0 by New Zealand. </p><p></p><p>France, likewise, have gone downhill in recent years. France in 2009 beat New Zealand in New Zealand. They won that series on points. Then went on to beat South Africa in South Africa. All downhill from there. </p><p></p><p>Maybe you think those teams were poor. Whatever they were, they were better then than they have been for most of Lancaster's time as England coach.</p><p></p><p>Put simply, I don't think I can agree with the idea that Lancaster has faced a markedly stronger 6N tournament than Johnson. It has been easier to beat France and Ireland. That's quite a significant advantage for Lancaster.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Mm. Lets see shall we. There's two games coming up for him to prove we're properly competitive. Not Wales competitive, actually competitive. I reckon England should win the Saffa game. </p><p></p><p>Having thought about your arguments though, I believe that contextually Lancaster has probably faced an easier task in some ways than Johnson. </p><p></p><p>I think it mainly comes down to emotions. It wasn't a great time to be an England fan, despite that brief ray of sunshine. Whatever Lancaster may or may not be, his PR is pretty slick. Nothing but good vibes. Very easy to excuse Lancaster's shortcomings, very easy to see Johnson's achievements as a fluke (which is a worthwhile point of argument). But, you know, if you can't do what a guy in his first ever pro coaching job can luck his way into...</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Peat, post: 688421, member: 42330"] First off, I simply disagree with you on the influence an international coach can have. It is far from unknown for an international coach to take a player in indifferent form and get them motoring. Secondly, poor performance and loss of gametime at international level can turn into a lack of confidence all round. Bad domestic form can come from a bad international scene. To get more specific... Ben Youngs never had a decent pass. He was always a fan of bouncing bombs. Ben Youngs K/P/R from his first 6 games of 2010 - 31/325/33 (7.9pc kicks) Ben Youngs K/P/R from his first 6 games of 2014 - 25/286/30 (7.3pc kicks) Ben Youngs, for Leicester, kicks less and runs more than he did in his 2010 pomp. The idea that Leicester have turned him into a kicking machine seems to be not true. Lets examine the idea that he is a lesser sniping threat 2010 - 190 metres made, 2 line breaks, 3 defenders beaten, 1 try 2014 - 116 metres made, 2 line breaks, 6 defenders beaten, 1 try So... maybe. He is making less metres - but is that counter-balanced by more defenders beaten? I am happy to say that he is at the least still quite a sniping threat. Youngs has always been an off the cuff player with a sketchy pass. Not overly sure what's changed tbh, at least not for Leicester. Ashton just scored the record number of tries in a Heineken Cup campaign if memory serves. Sure, it was ideal circumstances, but that's one hell of a good going for a player who's declined and is in a team that doesn't rely on his strengths. Eight Premiership tries last season as well, not too bad either. I'd like to see what Saffycen has to say about this, because I suspect that talk of him being declined and unused for Saracens has been untrue for at least a season. His strengths have completely and totally been ignored by England though for the entirety of Lancaster's reign. Let's not even pretend anything else has happened. He was given zero chance to fulfill the same sort of role he had previously... ... neither was Flood. Whatever he may or may not have (such as 7 international starts at 12 prior to Johnson even taking over) he was a fantastic player on the gainline, but for that he needed runners, and Lancaster gave him none. Season right after. Foden, again, involved next season, doesn't look great. For players in decline, they've done some pretty neat stuff recently. To be honest, I just don't buy this. Ireland went an entire calender year beaten in 2009 - including two SANZAR games - before starting their gradual descent that ended up with them - post World Cup - losing to Scotland and Italy, and getting humped 60-0 by New Zealand. France, likewise, have gone downhill in recent years. France in 2009 beat New Zealand in New Zealand. They won that series on points. Then went on to beat South Africa in South Africa. All downhill from there. Maybe you think those teams were poor. Whatever they were, they were better then than they have been for most of Lancaster's time as England coach. Put simply, I don't think I can agree with the idea that Lancaster has faced a markedly stronger 6N tournament than Johnson. It has been easier to beat France and Ireland. That's quite a significant advantage for Lancaster. Mm. Lets see shall we. There's two games coming up for him to prove we're properly competitive. Not Wales competitive, actually competitive. I reckon England should win the Saffa game. Having thought about your arguments though, I believe that contextually Lancaster has probably faced an easier task in some ways than Johnson. I think it mainly comes down to emotions. It wasn't a great time to be an England fan, despite that brief ray of sunshine. Whatever Lancaster may or may not be, his PR is pretty slick. Nothing but good vibes. Very easy to excuse Lancaster's shortcomings, very easy to see Johnson's achievements as a fluke (which is a worthwhile point of argument). But, you know, if you can't do what a guy in his first ever pro coaching job can luck his way into... [/QUOTE]
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