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LP - World class or international calibre?

Iorwerth

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Wales
Is this player World class or international calibre?

I don't particulalry agree with the games choices of which players are world class, international etc, but thought I would deal with LPs first.

Which of these LP's do you think should be classed as World Class and which as International calibre?

Alex Corbisiero (Eng)
James Slipper (Aus)
Gethin Jenkins (Wal)
Ryan Grant (sco)
Thomas Domingo (fra)
Joe Marler (Eng)
Wyatt Crockett (NZ)
Marcos Ayerza (Arg)
Tendai mtawarina (SA)
Cian Healy (Ire)
Jannie Du Plessis (Sa)
Guthro Steenkamp (SA)
Tony Woodcock (NZ)
Ben Franks (NZ)

Any others that should be considered e.g. What about Marko Vuniploa (eng)?

Personally, I think Ben Franks should drop down from WC to International, with Tendai Mtawarina and Cian Healy defintely going to World Class. I am not as knowledgable about the southern hemisphere players to be honest, so don't know if Steenkamp and Du Plessis should stay WC or come down to international calibre. I really like Ayerza as a loosehead, as his scummaging is immense, but he should probably stay international.

Anyone got any thoughts?
 
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After a bit of feedback from some other forums I asked the question, this is where my thinking on loosehead props is at the moment:

World Class
Alex Corbisiero (Eng)
Marcos Ayerza (Arg)
Tendai mtawarina (SA)
Cian Healy (Ire)
Tony Woodcock (NZ) - I don't think he exists in the game, so probably won't add him. EDIT: Actually found him - he is classified as a TP/HK!

International Class
James Slipper (Aus)
Gethin Jenkins (Wal)
Ryan Grant (sco)
Thomas Domingo (fra)
Joe Marler (Eng)
Wyatt Crockett (NZ)
Ben Franks (NZ)
Logovi'i Mulipola (Samoa)
Guthro Steenkamp (SA)

NB Jannie Du Plessis is a TP not LP, so i have taken him off the list.

Going to have a look at the tightheads in a bit. Please feel free to add your say to all of this!

- - - Updated - - -

Going to post a list of tightheads to consider. Please tell me who to add if you think I have missed anyone off that should be considered good enough to make the grade, or any player on it that should be downgraded off the list!

Sekope Kepu (Aus)
Samson Lee (wal)
Carl Hayman (NZ)
Charlie Faumuina (NZ)
Adam Jones (Wal)
Nicolas Mas (Fra)
Jannie du Plessis (SA)
Martin Castrogiovanni (Ita)
David Wilson (Eng)
Juan Figallo (Arg)
Owen Franks (NZ)
Wyatt Crockett (NZ)
Ben Alexander (Aus)
Euan Murray (Sco)
Mike Ross (Ire)
Geoff Cross (sco)
Dan Cole (Eng)
 
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This thread is quite interesting for gathering opinions on World Class / International class

http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/34577-TRF-World-XV-2014-Poll-on-first-post

I can think of loads of props from SA who might end up World Class or International - this is why potential calibre is important. I think the Beast should not be World Class and Gurthro Steenkamp no longer International class btw
 
For SA it's a bit of a transition period for the props; Mtawarira is still decent and I'm 50/50 whether he is WC or int while Oosthuizen was a failed experiment. I think Steenkamp and Jannie are botha past it now. Frans Malherbe if not for continued injuries would've had way more than the 4 caps (and 4 wins I might add) to his name and right now already is ahead of Jannie at TH. Looking forward to Marcel van der Merwe, Thomas du Toit and Lions duo Schalk van der Merwe and Julian Redelinghuys in the future though I think the latter 3 will only really feature post the 2015 RWC.
 
Thanks for the input! That thread is very interesting. At the moment I am going down the route of making more players international than the base database does. What I really hope for this game is that they introduce aging and the ability for a player's calibre to go both up and down depending on it. Fingers crossed.
 
Calibre should not go up and down according to age alone though. There should be random elements, performance elements as well as training.

Sometimes a player aged 25 doesn't realise his potential and is inexplicably worse at 28. Sometimes players get better for no reasons. Some players don't really deteriorate etc. I think there should be a number of factors.
 
Yes, I agree. Match performance needs to play as part, as does attributes - presumably match ratings would come into it, though would need to be balanced in some way, so that players playing for a useless team would still find it possible to get better. What defintely needs to happen is player's attributes getting worse when they get older and a drop in calibre to accompany it.
 
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This is the edit I have done so far for LPs (maybe too many international calibre, but I don't like the attribute drop between internaional and national, as it is too large, so it seemed better to stick a few more players into international calibre).

LP WORLD CLASS CALIBRE
Cian Healy (ire)
Tony Woodcock(NZ)
Ben Franks (NZ)
Marcos Ayerza (Arg)
Tendai Mtawarira (SA)

LP INTERRNATIONAL CALIBRE
Matias Aguero (Ita)
Scott Sio (Aus)
Alasdair Dickinson (Sco)
Gordon Reid (sco)
Joe Marler (Eng)
Logovi'i Mulipola (Sam)
Alex Corisiero (Eng)
Aaron Jarvis (wal)
James Slipper (Aus)
Mako Vuniploa (Eng)
Gurthro Steenkamp (SA)
Jean-Baptiste Poux (Fra)
Paul James (wal)
Gethin Jenkins (wal)
Joe Moody (NZ)
Jack mcGrath (Ire)
Alexadnfre Menini (Fra)
Benn Robinson (Aus)



TP

This is my first stab at which TP props would be WC and which International:

TP WORLD CLASS
Sekope Kepu (Aus)
Nicolas Mas (Fra)
Adam Jones (Wal)
Martin Castrogiovanni (Ita)
David Wilson (Eng)
Mike Ross (Ire)
Owen Franks (NZ)

TP INTERNATIONAL
Samson Lee (wal)
Carl Hayman (NZ)
Charlie Faumuina (NZ)
Jannie du Plessis (SA)
Juan Figallo (Arg)
Wyatt Crockett (NZ)
Ben Alexander (Aus)
Euan Murray (Sco)
Geoff Cross (sco)
Dan Cole (Eng)
Coenie Oosthuizen (RSA)
Ben Alexander (Aus)
Rabah Slimani (Fra) ?
Laurie Weeks (Aus) ?
Trevor Nyakane (Sa) ?
Pekahou Cowan (Aus) ?
Neemia Tialata (NZ)?
Paddy Ryan (Aus)?
Rodney Ah-You (ire) ?


thoughts?
 
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I have been collecting lists of current international players, going through 6 nation squads etc, in preperation to edit the database to make it conform kmore closely to the actual rugby world. I am thinking about what calibres I should use for players that are in international squads, have international caps etc. When I did research into attributes in the game, I found there is a big drop off between a player that is international calibre and those that are national calibre, even with a star. Anyway, to cut a long story short, should players from the main nations who are in national squads but recieved a handful of caps, or perhaps still waiting for their fist caps, be considered international calibre? What about if they have 10 caps? 20 caps? etc

A problem I am having at the moment is that the gap in attributes between a national player and an international player is large - a top national attibute is generally equal to, or just a point or two higher, than the lowest international level attribute, while even the below average international calibre attributes are generally higher than the best national calibre attributes. This means that setting a player at national calibre who, in reality, is a player who gets picked for their international side, or in the nation's squad, even if not a regular, is really going to be far and away second best in attribute levels to any player that you give international calibre to. This gap can be problematic when trying to edit players.

I have thought about a few ways of trying to deal with this:

1. Make all players who in reality are in international squads, have caps etc (at least for the major nations), international calibre (apart from those you viewed as World Class, which stays as a calibre) - they can be given attributes in the lower range of international, but still they would be international calibre. This will have the effect of flooding the game with international calibre players, which will then re-gen at this calibre when the players retire. I am not sure this is bad, and may be my preffered solution, but, like I say, this will create a big pool of international calibre players per major nation, rather than the current smaller ones.

2. Make many of the players who are, in reality, currently international squad players, or have won some international caps, national calibre in the game, with or without with a star, but edit many of them so their attributes can go over what a national calibre player is currently given by the game - i.e. sort of creating a half-way house catagory between the current national calibre and international calibre catagories. The attributes would still be generally lower than those of a player given international calibre, but the gap would be much less, thus allowing a more gradual attribute curve from World class calibre, through international and into national calibre. This is all fine and dandy, but i don't know if once these players retire whether the re-gen players will all go back to having attributes at the lower 'official' range, making the change dissapear as your save game progresses. If they do go back to the standard 'official' attribute ranges for a national calibre player, then eventually your game will go back to the same big differences between national calibre and international calibre, and the advantage gained from the changes would be lost.

3. My third, more radical idea, is just removing World Class calibre. A world class calibre player would now be given international calibre, and all other 'international' players would be national calibre. If the player is, in reality, an international player because they are or have been called up into international squads, have earned international caps etc, then they would be given attributes at or near the top of the national calibre attribute ranges, with the better ones gettting an added star etc. The advantage of this system is that, apart from the super star 'best players in the world' catagory (which is now international calibre), the difference in attributes between international and non-international players is smaller, as all of them are national calibre. The problem with this system is that the game will still create world class calibre players in the the player's colts, but they won't exists anywhere else - so the player would either have to accept this huge advantage or fire them, and, in addition, there are facility mechanisms built around how many world class calibre players your club can handle, which would therefore become irrelevant.

If you don't mind the bit gap in attribute levels between international and national calibre, and the affects it has on the international side of the game, then no need to do anything. However, the large gap does present problems when trying to be vaguely realisitic when editing players, hence my thoughts on what potentially might be done to sort it out. I am inclined to just be more genrous with the amount of international calibre players I create (i.e. option 1) - but at the moment I am unsure what is the best path to go down. I don't want to do a load of editing and then change my mind half-way through, so the edit philosophy really has to be decided upon before any editing begins.

I would be interested to hear what thoughts others have on the percieved problem and potential solutions!
 
An example of some of the difficulty - take the French international six nations squad, plus who the game cuurrently deem international and world class calibre players:

The Game currently:

FLThierry Dusautoir - WC
FH Trinh- Duc - international
FH Michalak - international
N8 Chouly - international
FL Ouedraogo - international
IC Fofana - international
IC Mermoz - international
LK Pape - international
LK Maestri - international
TP Mas - International
HK Szarzewski - international
OC Bastareaud - international

Current national Squad (bar Bruno, who has retired from international rugby, but who was class when he was playing for france):

In the current French Six Nations Squad ( not including the above players)
TP Uini Antonio, 1 cap (2nd heaviest player in international rugby currently)
TP Alexandre Menini, 1 cap - people say this guy could be world class.
LP Eddy Ben Arous, 1 cap
HK Bruno 26 caps - retired from international rugby, but excellent scrummager, though erratic lineout.
HK Guihem Guirado - 10 caps, often put in the top 10 list of international hookers.
HK Benjamin Kayser - 12 caps
LK Pape - 26 caps
LK Flanquart - 3 caps
LK Maestri - 16 caps
LK Taofifenua - 3 caps
FL Dusautoir - 30 caps - World Class, everyone would agree.
FL Le Roux - 3 caps - people think he could be, or is, a v.good/wc player
FL Lauret - 2 caps
FL Nyanga - 16 caps
FL/N8 Picamoles - 21 caps
N8 Chouly - 8 caps - game views him as international class, perhaps should be World Class.
SH Pelissie - 1 cap - much expected of him, maybe even World Class eventually
SH Para - 29 caps
SH Kockott - 1 cap
SH Tillous Borde - 0 caps
FH Trinh-Duc - games rates him international, which seems right
FH Lopez - 1 cap - consider to be a good international prospect
FH Tales - 3 caps
IC Fofana - 14 caps, rated by game international, probably should be World Class
OC Basteraud - 19 caps - games rates international calibre - probably about right.
IC/OC? Fickou - 6 caps
IC?OC? Lamerat - 1 cap
WG Thomas - 1 cap - people think this guy could become World class
WG Huget - 16 caps - another winger that is considered class
WG Nakaitaci - 0 caps
FB/UB Scott Spedding - 1 cap, people think he could be very good.
FB Dulin - 5 caps
UB Alexandre Doumoulin - 0 caps

As can be seen, there are a fair number of players to decide about here. The easy choices are to put the following into these calibres:

WORLD CLASS
FL Dusautoir
IC Fofana

INTERNATIONAL CALIBRE
TP Alexandre Menini
TP Mas
HK Bruno
HK Szarzewski
HK Guihem Guirado - maybe WC?
LK Pape
LK Maestri
FL Ouedraogo - international (?)
FL Nyanga
FL Le Roux
FL/N8 Picamoles
N8 Chouly
SH Pelissie
FH Lopez
IC Mermoz
OC Bastareaud
WG Huget
WG Thomas - potentially should be in the World class calibre due to potential.
FB Spedding (although not capped much, people rate him highly)

So, even being quite tight with the catagory, we have added another player to the WC calibre and another seven to international calibre. If this pattern was representative of what would be happening in the other major nations, then the world class calibre catagory would probably be going up by another 6-8 players, and the International calibre catagory by 40-50 players, plus a few more from the other nations e.g. Argentina has some World class and international clibre players that should be added. However, i think it would probably be more than this. With the french there are a number of players that are reasonable internationals and, because of the gap between national and international attributes, would probably be better off in the international catagory - for example:
TP Uini Antonio
HK Benjamin Kayser
IC Fickou
FB Dulin

Some of the players with only a handful of caps or even uncapped are probably considered good prospects for france, so in game terms all of them might be knocking on the international calibre door:
LP Eddy Ben Arous, 1 cap
LK Flanquart - 3 caps
LK Taofifenua - 3 caps
FL Lauret - 2 caps
SH Kockott - 1 cap
SH Tillous Borde - 0 caps
FH Tales - 3 caps
IC?OC? Lamerat - 1 cap
WG Nakaitaci - 0 caps
UB Alexandre Doumoulin - 0 caps

Making a large number of these players national calibre, rather than international calibre, as the game currently does, creates a problem, as the gap in attribute levels is generally so large that these national calibre players will always be highly inferior to the international ones, and this is not really the situation in reality.
 
I put every player who has won an international cap on international calibre and all the players I reckon have a chance of playing international footie on int calibre too. Seems to even things out a bit but I'm only a couple of seasons in so don't know the story with regens yet.
 
Dave answered this and regens will all be international calibre as well, which is good news. Your system is the one I am most tempted to go down as well. Out of interest, when you change their calibre, do you change the attributes as well?
 
That is good news! Yeah mate, changed all the attributes too. I did the 4 main leagues and then made a few colts from each team have int potential. Took ages but I feel the game is better.
 
I have been doing it by nation, rather than by club. However, by club would be easier to go through on the editor. What ranges did you use for assigning international attributes, or did you just go with gut feeling?

Also, I presume you have kept World Class calibre?
 
Yeah, I went to wiki and went through club by club, it has updated squads and internationally capped players are in bold.
For attributes I went with my gut but I had a look at your attribute benchmarks and I'd say 80 percent+ are within those numbers.
Yeah, kept World Class but I only gave it to a few players.
 
Your way sounds quite sensible - any chance you you could post up your edit so i could download it? It would save me a lot of time if i don't have to do it all myself! :)
 
Yeah no problem but you'll have to tell me how to do it.

I think I have found out how to do it!

Download mediafire - the free version. Once you have downloaded it, go to the mediafire.com site and then go to upload, and follow the instructions. Once that is completed you get a url for the download I think, and then just post it on here.

I had a bit of a disaster with my editing - I had got through editing the premiership and pro12 teams, but then when I went back to it I forgot to load up the edit, did some editing on the french league and then saved it over edit I had done before, so lost all the premiership and pro12 edits i had done! Not sure if I can face doing them all again, so your edit to download would be great.

I think I will have a go at editing the database so that all current international players get re-classified as national players, with reductions in their attributes to represent this, though obviously at the top end of the national player range. Then make all world class calibre players international class. The reason for this is that within national there is far more variation in attribute range, which will mean that, for example, not all international FBs would have 95-97 stamina, or all international TP's having 95-97 scrum and strength. I am not sure this is the best route to go down but it will be an interesting experiment with the database, and doing it will take less editing than doing the raising pf every capped player to international level (which I am hoping I can just use your edit for! :) )
 
Ok, I'll give it a shot later.
Just seen your other post on highering forwards' back attributes. I did it and engine seems fine. Players like Sergio Parisse and Kieran Read have as good if not better skills than many backs.
 

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