[MegaThread] RFU Top Flight Future

[RedruthRFC]

Anyone know who the 5 fully professional teams in the championship are?

Ealing obviously are.

I think Pirates still are, but there was talk of this status changing for this season and their future looks more uncertain as their major benefactor gets older and more unwell and the Stadium For Cornwall seems as far from reality as ever.

I would guess that given the sort of businesses on their doorstep, Jersey would be able to attract the sponsorship to manage it.

I'm not sure about the other two. Caldy and Richmond have seen vocal about limited budgets so I would assume they aren't. Bedford always used to claim semi-pro status, but this might be out of date.

There's not enough nuance in categorising sides as either fully-pro or semi-pro. The Championship version of fully pro is very different to the Premiership version. In the Championship, a fully-pro side has a smaller squad, augmented by DR players, supplemented by a limited coaching and medical staff, in a business that relies heavily on volunteers to carry run. There's a lot of scaling required up to reach the Premiership version, employing 100+ people.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

A Joint Statement from the RPA management team, Player Board and Senior Players from Wasps and Worcester

therpa.co.uk

Not sure about this - I think Genge (and others) have shown they're out of touch with the state of the game when they were saying they need to be cranking player salaries up

 

[die_mole]

Premiership Rugby not ruling out more clubs being suspended over finances

Premiership Rugby has refused to rule out more clubs joining Worcester and Wasps in being suspended from the league on financial grounds

www.theguardian.com

Worcester and wasps won't keep p shares

A Joint Statement from the RPA management team, Player Board and Senior Players from Wasps and Worcester

therpa.co.uk

Not sure about this - I think Genge (and others) have shown they're out of touch with the state of the game when they were saying they need to be cranking player salaries up

if they are gonna close shop the new league should have some sort of collectively bargained player relations

 

[Reiser99]

A Joint Statement from the RPA management team, Player Board and Senior Players from Wasps and Worcester

therpa.co.uk

Not sure about this - I think Genge (and others) have shown they're out of touch with the state of the game when they were saying they need to be cranking player salaries up

Tbh if you need to overhaul the game then everyone should be involved in the discussion in someway. Certainly I don't think those at the top have shown they are completely in control or competent enough to resolve the situation on their own.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Players will want more money for less games
Owners will want less money for more games

Reality talks need to be RFU and PRL talks more than anything.
Need to work out the best compromise for England rugby.

Because England international players struggles are very different to prem club player struggles.

Like Genge for example earning what an extra 250k a year due to being a England player and complaining about pay at club level despite being a top earner v someone on 60k a year for a club

 

[Wasps92]

I'd scrap the domestic cup competition to be honest. There is little to no interest in it anyway and less pointless games makes sense for player welfare, although I accept it's been a decent proving ground for young players coming through.

 

[BPM]

Players will want more money for less games
Owners will want less money for more games

Reality talks need to be RFU and PRL talks more than anything.
Need to work out the best compromise for England rugby.

Because England international players struggles are very different to prem club player struggles.

Like Genge for example earning what an extra 250k a year due to being a England player and complaining about pay at club level despite being a top earner v someone on 60k a year for a club

Exactly - the top players continually driving up salaries will ultimately end up with the squad players earning peanuts. They seem to have no concept of the financial challenges the game is facing which I find immensely frustrating.

 

[Which Tyler]

I'd happily bring in an intraclub financial fair play, where no player can earn more than 10x (or whatever makes sense) any team-mate.

May not be legal though

 

[BPM]

The part that gets me is the complete lack of awareness. A) there simply money in the game to support massive salaries and B) by asking for one, you're more than likely shafting your mates.

 

[BPM]

Or to put it another way, a lot of clubs are in situations where a top player on £300k is asking for a 20% uplift. If they agree to it, they probably have to get that £60k by letting a squad player go. I get that the top players want to maximise their earnings, but their expectations are now wildly out of step with reality and they don't appear to understand the consequences.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

IMO the problem with the league is that most of the biggest cities in the country don't even have a rugby team.
London - 3 clubs in the prem, 3 clubs in the champ 0 Clubs in the East side lol
Birmingham - nearly 1 million population 0 clubs at both levels
Liverpool - over 800K 0 clubs at both levels (I guess Caldy at a push)
Sheffield - just under 700K 0 clubs
Bristol - 1 club
Leicester - 1 club
Leeds - 0 club
Manchester - 1 club that doesn't even use Manchester in it's name but a place thats what 20 minutes away from manchester with a smaller pop
Stoke - 0 club
Coventry - 2 clubs 1 moved in the last 15 years

Top 10 cities in England and outside london none in the top 3 populated cities in the top 2 levels.

Leeds should've gotten more sympathy and support than Wasps or Worcester got IMO. But people didn't seem to care because they hadn't been in the prem for ages.

Blows my mind Liverpool and Birmingham highest place team is Nat 1.
I don't even think Liverpool have a team in any of the National leagues lol.


Don't get me wrong I don't think big cities = good population but big cities help with the brand.
Ask someone in america if they have heard of say Liverpool and Gloucester they will prob think Gloucester is a cheese.

 

[BPM]

True, but then League's dominance in the North accounts for a fair bit of that. You could say the same in reverse when you swap the codes.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Eh imo the notion that League is too much of a hot bed in the north to compete doesn't fit anymore.
Union has a really strong grassroots showing in the Northwest for example.

League highest average attendance is only like 12K even Sale average more than Salford.
I think it's just a lazy excuse by the PRL nowadays

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Exactly - the top players continually driving up salaries will ultimately end up with the squad players earning peanuts. They seem to have no concept of the financial challenges the game is facing which I find immensely frustrating.

I can't blame players (or anyone) for looking to do the best for themselves - young men, peak earnings, only an injury away etc.

I can 1000% blame clubs for acceding to unaffordable demands. Players can ask for whatever they like, but what clubs actually pay is entirely in their own gift. If valuations don't meet, then part company as happens in the rest of the world. If clubs go beyond their means or are imprudently managed, well we've seen what happens.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Eh imo the notion that League is too much of a hot bed in the north to compete doesn't fit anymore.
Union has a really strong grassroots showing in the Northwest for example.

League highest average attendance is only like 12K even Sale average more than Salford.
I think it's just a lazy excuse by the PRL nowadays

Do agree that it's overblown but I think it does play a not-insignificant part in it - there are four clubs quite tightly placed in the northwest and four clubs quite tightly placed around Leeds
If two, of each, have home games with conservative 7k crowds that's still 14k people in/around each city taken out of a potential supporter base
Obviously I'm not saying if league ceased to exist that they'd all floor to be union supporters but it's still a hurdle

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I can't blame players (or anyone) for looking to do the best for themselves - young men, peak earnings, only an injury away etc.

I can 1000% blame clubs for acceding to unaffordable demands. Players can ask for whatever they like, but what clubs actually pay is entirely in their own gift. If valuations don't meet, then part company as happens in the rest of the world. If clubs go beyond their means or are imprudently managed, well we've seen what happens.

I think part of the issue is the imbalance in salaries across the club game
The SH couldn't play catch-up with the NH so the players left en-masse for the north,
France and Japan are now pumping the salaries up even higher and the Prem is killing itself to try and keep up - but if we didn't then players would just leave and it would have a knock-on effect to the quality of the clubs

I do wonder if the RFU should restructure their match fees to be much smaller (or non existent) and bring in salary for being in the EPS instead. The EPS is already quite rigid in how many players you can swap in/out at a time - generally if you make the EPS you're in it for the season.
Would a guaranteed £50k per year, instead of a potential £17k per game, mean clubs could chip a bit off their salary? Or just central contracts in general?

I dunno, something's gotta give - senior players getting offers of high 6 figures from abroad then expecting prem clubs to match isn't sustainable

 

[Saintjay]

IMO the problem with the league is that most of the biggest cities in the country don't even have a rugby team.
London - 3 clubs in the prem, 3 clubs in the champ 0 Clubs in the East side lol
Birmingham - nearly 1 million population 0 clubs at both levels
Liverpool - over 800K 0 clubs at both levels (I guess Caldy at a push)
Sheffield - just under 700K 0 clubs
Bristol - 1 club
Leicester - 1 club
Leeds - 0 club
Manchester - 1 club that doesn't even use Manchester in it's name but a place thats what 20 minutes away from manchester with a smaller pop
Stoke - 0 club
Coventry - 2 clubs 1 moved in the last 15 years

Top 10 cities in England and outside london none in the top 3 populated cities in the top 2 levels.

Leeds should've gotten more sympathy and support than Wasps or Worcester got IMO. But people didn't seem to care because they hadn't been in the prem for ages.

Blows my mind Liverpool and Birmingham highest place team is Nat 1.
I don't even think Liverpool have a team in any of the National leagues lol.


Don't get me wrong I don't think big cities = good population but big cities help with the brand.
Ask someone in america if they have heard of say Liverpool and Gloucester they will prob think Gloucester is a cheese.

Most of those cities have two decent level football teams. Most are also traditional industrial working class places. Most of my friends from the North West and North East had little rugby at school. Sadly it's still seen as a posh boys sport. Football is king. Those that have attended games feel sneered at because they are not wearing red chinos and say "chin, chin". Sometimes it seems rugby wants to grow the game but only with the "right sort" of fans.
The big cities have diverse multicultural populations now. Grow interest with the Indian, Pakistan, communities etc.

 

[die_mole]

I do think there is something to Japan raising the prices of the top players by offering them and only them huge salaries. France competes for everyone from superstar to water boy cause you have so many teams competing.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Eh imo the notion that League is too much of a hot bed in the north to compete doesn't fit anymore.
Union has a really strong grassroots showing in the Northwest for example.

League highest average attendance is only like 12K even Sale average more than Salford.
I think it's just a lazy excuse by the PRL nowadays

I have long felt that the decline in standing of a lot of big-name clubs in the North is an elephant in the rugby room. If you go back to the early days of league rugby and the JP Cup, a lot of the teams in the North area are playing at a way lower level than they were 30-40+ years ago. Liverpool is a good example, with Waterloo and LSH being household names (in rugby households at least) the fell down through the leagues, in the 90s / 00s. Manchester's not too different with Manchester themselves, Orrell and to a lesser extent Broughton Park's decline. In Yorkshire Wakefield don't even exist anymore, Headingly and Roundhay merged to form a club that's now just about hanging on at level 3 and Morley and Sheffield now further down the Pyramid.

If this is league's fault, the question becomes what union has done wrong and / or league done right for this to be the reason or such a seachange.

 

[RedruthRFC]

I do think there is something to Japan raising the prices of the top players by offering them and only them huge salaries. France competes for everyone from superstar to water boy cause you have so many teams competing.

I think the interesting thing is that you have so many teams that can compete. I'm not saying it's a silver bullet, but have said for 10-15 years that the RFU should be looking at France to see what they can figure out the elements that contribute to their success and what could be easily replicated. It's easy to look at the high profile, super-wealthy owners and attribute their success to that, I'm sure there's more to it than that. All IMO of course, the facilities are better, thanks in part to their government being willing to invest in sports facilities and their match day experience is better. I also have a feeling that the clubs are better integrated with the local community.