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shazbooger
Guest
Not being smart, but is that not a good thing? I mean the RFU controlled franchises? Losing 2 clubs would be harsh on the two to go, but in general, while the private financiers have been making hay while the sun shines, looking after their own interest, now that times are tough they all hit the road? "The fact is that the vast majority of rugby clubs are reliant on shareholder capital for cash flow and that is not the ideal way to run a business."
On a more positive note. I heard on the radio the other day, something about 207 registered foreign players in the French Top 14 (about 15 in each squad) seriously hampering Lievremont's ability to select a top team. He isnt just experimenting, he doesnt have the players available anymore. England seem to be running down the same path so this change could enable "......................... them to develop cheaper home-grown talent rather than buying in expensive imports to avoid the drop. Johnson would also eventually benefit from having more England-qualified players to choose from, a factor, according to some in the RFU, which is behind England's precipitous decline."
On a more positive note. I heard on the radio the other day, something about 207 registered foreign players in the French Top 14 (about 15 in each squad) seriously hampering Lievremont's ability to select a top team. He isnt just experimenting, he doesnt have the players available anymore. England seem to be running down the same path so this change could enable "......................... them to develop cheaper home-grown talent rather than buying in expensive imports to avoid the drop. Johnson would also eventually benefit from having more England-qualified players to choose from, a factor, according to some in the RFU, which is behind England's precipitous decline."
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gingergenius
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Dec 15 2008, 12:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
we have lots ofplayers available. even the most xenophobic englishman cannot blame our failures on foreigners. Look at the football team - all of a sudden it's doing well. Have we cut the number of foreigners in English football? no.
IMO the league is fine as it is. Maybe if they made the frankly pointless Anglo Welsh Cup get played during the international weekends then it might save the Premiership from low attendances for 8 rounds of the season.
As it is, if Bristol and Newcastle cannot afford to stay in the top flight then they will get relegated and someone else can join their place. My club Richmond went bankrupt, as did London Scottish; 10 years ago when we were both doing well in the Premiership. We both got dropped down to the lowest level of the league hierarchy, and have since both got promoted so we're in National 3 South. And we're quite happy playing rugby at a decent, amateur level. For big games we get maybe 1500 people in the stands.
Conclusion: we like the league system; professional clubs can always survive as amateur ones if the money dries up. There's no need for a franchise system; it's not in keeping with the way rugby's structured in this country and would do more harm than good, since the people who go to games on a wet windy afternoon during internationals are the hardcore fans of a club who'll stay through thick and thin anyway. They are the core of rugby and won't easily adapt to the changes in a franchise system.
Not being smart, but is that not a good thing? I mean the RFU controlled franchises? Losing 2 clubs would be harsh on the two to go, but in general, while the private financiers have been making hay while the sun shines, looking after their own interest, now that times are tough they all hit the road? "The fact is that the vast majority of rugby clubs are reliant on shareholder capital for cash flow and that is not the ideal way to run a business."
On a more positive note. I heard on the radio the other day, something about 207 registered foreign players in the French Top 14 (about 15 in each squad) seriously hampering Lievremont's ability to select a top team. He isnt just experimenting, he doesnt have the players available anymore. England seem to be running down the same path so this change could enable "......................... them to develop cheaper home-grown talent rather than buying in expensive imports to avoid the drop. Johnson would also eventually benefit from having more England-qualified players to choose from, a factor, according to some in the RFU, which is behind England's precipitous decline."[/b]
we have lots ofplayers available. even the most xenophobic englishman cannot blame our failures on foreigners. Look at the football team - all of a sudden it's doing well. Have we cut the number of foreigners in English football? no.
IMO the league is fine as it is. Maybe if they made the frankly pointless Anglo Welsh Cup get played during the international weekends then it might save the Premiership from low attendances for 8 rounds of the season.
As it is, if Bristol and Newcastle cannot afford to stay in the top flight then they will get relegated and someone else can join their place. My club Richmond went bankrupt, as did London Scottish; 10 years ago when we were both doing well in the Premiership. We both got dropped down to the lowest level of the league hierarchy, and have since both got promoted so we're in National 3 South. And we're quite happy playing rugby at a decent, amateur level. For big games we get maybe 1500 people in the stands.
Conclusion: we like the league system; professional clubs can always survive as amateur ones if the money dries up. There's no need for a franchise system; it's not in keeping with the way rugby's structured in this country and would do more harm than good, since the people who go to games on a wet windy afternoon during internationals are the hardcore fans of a club who'll stay through thick and thin anyway. They are the core of rugby and won't easily adapt to the changes in a franchise system.
V
Vambo
Guest
Difficult times ahead with some tough decisions to be made.
Personally I don't think culling two teams is the answer but clubs are definitely going to have to tighten their belts... the financial losses Wasps sustain are horrendous.
Personally I don't think culling two teams is the answer but clubs are definitely going to have to tighten their belts... the financial losses Wasps sustain are horrendous.
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shazbooger
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Dec 15 2008, 12:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Similarly to what you see in France. Just look at Toulon (not a top team I know), is there even a French player amonst the first 15? Coached by a foreign coach, and spending an absolute fortune on foreign imports. Again, not to get side tracked on this issue, but its a similar short term view being shown by the premiership teams. Leeds united syndrome.
I dont want to get caught up in a minor issue here, but look at the top 4 premiership teams (Football, not Rugby), there are barely 11 English players regularly getting first team football amongst them. From a possibly 44, only 11 are English. That has to impact on the international side.Look at the football team - all of a sudden it's doing well. Have we cut the number of foreigners in English football? no.[/b]
Similarly to what you see in France. Just look at Toulon (not a top team I know), is there even a French player amonst the first 15? Coached by a foreign coach, and spending an absolute fortune on foreign imports. Again, not to get side tracked on this issue, but its a similar short term view being shown by the premiership teams. Leeds united syndrome.
D
DonBilly
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Dec 15 2008, 06:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Similarly to what you see in France. Just look at Toulon (not a top team I know), is there even a French player amonst the first 15? Coached by a foreign coach, and spending an absolute fortune on foreign imports. Again, not to get side tracked on this issue, but its a similar short term view being shown by the premiership teams. Leeds united syndrome.
[/b][/quote]
You're like the English commentators who don't know the non-international French players and are then unable to pronounciate their names nor to recognize them. It's likely that many of the French commentators would have this behaviour with non-international English or Welsh players.
There are some French players that you can find quite often in Toulon, like Blanquet, Vidal, Missoup, Andreu or Grimau. Actually Toulon have strong a Rugby Academy (players like Mignoni or Emmanuelli or Dridri come from there, Dominici, Delaigue or Califano came from Toulon) and they should incoporate more and more players from their academy.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Dec 15 2008, 12:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I dont want to get caught up in a minor issue here, but look at the top 4 premiership teams (Football, not Rugby), there are barely 11 English players regularly getting first team football amongst them. From a possibly 44, only 11 are English. That has to impact on the international side.Look at the football team - all of a sudden it's doing well. Have we cut the number of foreigners in English football? no.[/b]
Similarly to what you see in France. Just look at Toulon (not a top team I know), is there even a French player amonst the first 15? Coached by a foreign coach, and spending an absolute fortune on foreign imports. Again, not to get side tracked on this issue, but its a similar short term view being shown by the premiership teams. Leeds united syndrome.
[/b][/quote]
You're like the English commentators who don't know the non-international French players and are then unable to pronounciate their names nor to recognize them. It's likely that many of the French commentators would have this behaviour with non-international English or Welsh players.
There are some French players that you can find quite often in Toulon, like Blanquet, Vidal, Missoup, Andreu or Grimau. Actually Toulon have strong a Rugby Academy (players like Mignoni or Emmanuelli or Dridri come from there, Dominici, Delaigue or Califano came from Toulon) and they should incoporate more and more players from their academy.
A
An Tarbh
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DonBilly @ Dec 15 2008, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Similarly to what you see in France. Just look at Toulon (not a top team I know), is there even a French player amonst the first 15? Coached by a foreign coach, and spending an absolute fortune on foreign imports. Again, not to get side tracked on this issue, but its a similar short term view being shown by the premiership teams. Leeds united syndrome.
[/b][/quote]
You're like the English commentators who don't know the non-international French players and are then unable to pronounciate their names nor to recognize them. It's likely that many of the French commentators would have this behaviour with non-international English or Welsh players.
There are some French players that you can find quite often in Toulon, like Blanquet, Vidal, Missoup, Andreu or Grimau. Actually Toulon have strong a Rugby Academy (players like Mignoni or Emmanuelli or Dridri come from there, Dominici, Delaigue or Califano came from Toulon) and they should incoporate more and more players from their academy.
[/b][/quote]
well it's a fact that they have these problems with current internationals too.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Dec 15 2008, 06:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Dec 15 2008, 12:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I dont want to get caught up in a minor issue here, but look at the top 4 premiership teams (Football, not Rugby), there are barely 11 English players regularly getting first team football amongst them. From a possibly 44, only 11 are English. That has to impact on the international side.Look at the football team - all of a sudden it's doing well. Have we cut the number of foreigners in English football? no.[/b]
Similarly to what you see in France. Just look at Toulon (not a top team I know), is there even a French player amonst the first 15? Coached by a foreign coach, and spending an absolute fortune on foreign imports. Again, not to get side tracked on this issue, but its a similar short term view being shown by the premiership teams. Leeds united syndrome.
[/b][/quote]
You're like the English commentators who don't know the non-international French players and are then unable to pronounciate their names nor to recognize them. It's likely that many of the French commentators would have this behaviour with non-international English or Welsh players.
There are some French players that you can find quite often in Toulon, like Blanquet, Vidal, Missoup, Andreu or Grimau. Actually Toulon have strong a Rugby Academy (players like Mignoni or Emmanuelli or Dridri come from there, Dominici, Delaigue or Califano came from Toulon) and they should incoporate more and more players from their academy.
[/b][/quote]
well it's a fact that they have these problems with current internationals too.
P
Prestwick
Guest
European Club rugby is facing its most serious and dire financial crisis since professionalism began and we're bickering about ring-fencing and club shedding in such a biased and one-eyed way that we all believe it was actually the RFU who caused the global credit crunch and financial melt-down in order to force Bristol and Newcastle into liquidation!
This. Is. SERIOUS BUSINESS, guys. Nobody is safe. All that needs to happen is the Nigel Wrays and Keith Barwells of this world to say "sod it, I haven't got the money to waste any more" and pull out. Every club in Europe from Sale all the way down to the Italian clubs are currently going over their balance sheets with a fine tooth comb to make sure that 1) they can keep going with their currently financial backing and 2) plan a fiscal escape route if they are left high and dry.
Now is not the time to blame Rob Andrews, gentlemen.
This. Is. SERIOUS BUSINESS, guys. Nobody is safe. All that needs to happen is the Nigel Wrays and Keith Barwells of this world to say "sod it, I haven't got the money to waste any more" and pull out. Every club in Europe from Sale all the way down to the Italian clubs are currently going over their balance sheets with a fine tooth comb to make sure that 1) they can keep going with their currently financial backing and 2) plan a fiscal escape route if they are left high and dry.
Now is not the time to blame Rob Andrews, gentlemen.
C
Cymro
Guest
For me in the Guniess Prem I believed that there is a salary cap (correct me on this, if im wrong) and im sure this salary cap stopped the Tigers signing Ben Cohen last season! Surely if there is a problem with the wages then the salary cap must be taken seriously, I got told that its more relaxed this year? If they had a strict salary cap then it would help part of the crisis clubs are facing!
S
shazbooger
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
I'm not saying French club rugby is crap or anything, I think its definately the best national league in the world. But at the same time you have to try and find a balance. I just think French rugby has tipped over to the wrong side, and the English could be heading that way. Again, I'm just expressing an opinion.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Dec 15 2008, 08:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
http://www.thetimes.co.za/Sport/Article.aspx?id=882239
There are 207 foreigners from 22 countries plying their trade for Top 14 clubs this term, a startling average of just under 15 per club, and up from just 99 two years ago. There are also 165 in Pro D2, the second division.
At Brive, the foreigners number 24............... next in the list are newly-promoted big spenders Toulon, who have 22 foreigners on their roster, and Montpellier with 20.[/b]
I'm not saying French club rugby is crap or anything, I think its definately the best national league in the world. But at the same time you have to try and find a balance. I just think French rugby has tipped over to the wrong side, and the English could be heading that way. Again, I'm just expressing an opinion.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Dec 15 2008, 08:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
No idea who those guys are, but if they are owners or investors, then yeah big problems.All that needs to happen is the Nigel Wrays and Keith Barwells of this world to say "sod it, I haven't got the money to waste any more" and pull out.[/b]
P
Prestwick
Guest
Nigel Wray owns Saracens and Keith Barwell owns Northampton.
R
redunderthebed
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Dec 16 2008, 06:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
You are indeed right sir people like mite who will whinge about ring-fencing etc dont see the bigger picture.Its inbuilt in the culture of which for almost a hundred years or more resisted change and built itself upon it that any change will be resisted by luddites like teh mite.
I would much rather a franchise system of which means clubs from lower-leagues and new bids can come in after the current clubs license to stay in the league expires, much like the new super league franchise system *ducks* than clubs falling over because its either spend money for the short term or fall back into the national league.Have a franchise system it encourages long term growth sustainable investment and growth of english talent.
Whilst i vehermently disagree with the RFU controlling the clubs the idea of a 10 team comp as painfully slow as any change to a code built on resisting change is it will ultimately be necessary.
European Club rugby is facing its most serious and dire financial crisis since professionalism began and we're bickering about ring-fencing and club shedding in such a biased and one-eyed way that we all believe it was actually the RFU who caused the global credit crunch and financial melt-down in order to force Bristol and Newcastle into liquidation!
This. Is. SERIOUS BUSINESS, guys. Nobody is safe. All that needs to happen is the Nigel Wrays and Keith Barwells of this world to say "sod it, I haven't got the money to waste any more" and pull out. Every club in Europe from Sale all the way down to the Italian clubs are currently going over their balance sheets with a fine tooth comb to make sure that 1) they can keep going with their currently financial backing and 2) plan a fiscal escape route if they are left high and dry.
Now is not the time to blame Rob Andrews, gentlemen.[/b]
You are indeed right sir people like mite who will whinge about ring-fencing etc dont see the bigger picture.Its inbuilt in the culture of which for almost a hundred years or more resisted change and built itself upon it that any change will be resisted by luddites like teh mite.
I would much rather a franchise system of which means clubs from lower-leagues and new bids can come in after the current clubs license to stay in the league expires, much like the new super league franchise system *ducks* than clubs falling over because its either spend money for the short term or fall back into the national league.Have a franchise system it encourages long term growth sustainable investment and growth of english talent.
Whilst i vehermently disagree with the RFU controlling the clubs the idea of a 10 team comp as painfully slow as any change to a code built on resisting change is it will ultimately be necessary.
D
danny
Guest
Thats easy to say from a SH perspective where you have no traditional club heritage. I personally love England but first and foremost I am a Gloucester supporter. The day we give up our club game completely for the sake of the national team is the day I and most of my fellow Glaws fans stop going to rugby. I appreciate that international rugby is far bigger than our club game but its not all about money its also about the Passion. My passion will always be with Gloucester.No to franchise`s.
C
Cymro
Guest
So if it was to happen what clubs would be joined together?
I presume
Gloucester + Bristol
Wasps + Irish
Saracens + Harlequins
Worcester + Bath
etc?
I presume
Gloucester + Bristol
Wasps + Irish
Saracens + Harlequins
Worcester + Bath
etc?
F
Fa'atau82
Guest
Regional franchises would not work for premiership teams, as there is not enough top clubs scattered enough around the country. What happens in basketball, or more specifically British Basketball is that teams are franchised, not regionalised and any team who wants to make the step-up to full-time pro status has to show they can provide the level of finance and set-up.
Now, it works for some teams.. but most teams who make the step-up, like a club i worked for.. London United had all these big plans and the fans didn't come even though they wasn't a bad team.. more so they played in Hackney which although being a basketball hotbed is unappealing.. and so after 1 season, they went bust.
I don't think there is a problem.. the fact that as much as i like Bristol and Falcons.. they are just not doing the job at the moment results wise and that is reflected with crowds, and ultimately.. revenue.
As was mentioned.. the only problem we face is if the financial backers of the clubs are withdrawn. But it's the same in any game. Where would Chelsea go realistically if Abramovich left? It's a long way down, just ask Leeds United.
It's a peril of pro sports. You have to have a real sustainable club, underneath all of the cash. Cash will only get you so far, which is why teams like Toulon are going to divebomb big time when Boujellal realises he can't buy success. If he can't do it, the players will soon leave and what's left.. well there won't be much left.
Now, it works for some teams.. but most teams who make the step-up, like a club i worked for.. London United had all these big plans and the fans didn't come even though they wasn't a bad team.. more so they played in Hackney which although being a basketball hotbed is unappealing.. and so after 1 season, they went bust.
I don't think there is a problem.. the fact that as much as i like Bristol and Falcons.. they are just not doing the job at the moment results wise and that is reflected with crowds, and ultimately.. revenue.
As was mentioned.. the only problem we face is if the financial backers of the clubs are withdrawn. But it's the same in any game. Where would Chelsea go realistically if Abramovich left? It's a long way down, just ask Leeds United.
It's a peril of pro sports. You have to have a real sustainable club, underneath all of the cash. Cash will only get you so far, which is why teams like Toulon are going to divebomb big time when Boujellal realises he can't buy success. If he can't do it, the players will soon leave and what's left.. well there won't be much left.
R
redunderthebed
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (danny @ Dec 17 2008, 06:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Thats bullshit.......there is clubs in the SH that have great traditions thankyou very much.Sooper 14 isnt the be all and end all of SH rugby. <_<
Thats easy to say from a SH perspective where you have no traditional club heritage.[/b]
Thats bullshit.......there is clubs in the SH that have great traditions thankyou very much.Sooper 14 isnt the be all and end all of SH rugby. <_<
A
Andy_K
Guest
the current climate is making everyone and everything evaluate what they are doing regarding spending etc
This plan could make all our Rugby Union clubs safe for the long term, we need to not jump on the oh no they are ruining it, at end of the day it will still be Rugby Union the game we love to be apart of whether it is playing or watching.
plus i would hate Rotherham to get promoted spend money we have not got and go bust! i would much rather us develop the club and as proposed apply for a licence to join the Premiership when we know we can compete on and off the field.
This plan could make all our Rugby Union clubs safe for the long term, we need to not jump on the oh no they are ruining it, at end of the day it will still be Rugby Union the game we love to be apart of whether it is playing or watching.
plus i would hate Rotherham to get promoted spend money we have not got and go bust! i would much rather us develop the club and as proposed apply for a licence to join the Premiership when we know we can compete on and off the field.
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