Rucks, to button mash or to not to button mash, that is the question?

[TheBokke]

Meaning, **** you all, we want money and so are appealing to the mass market by naming it Rugby World Cup even though we have no licensed world cup stadia, no license of the hosts and a dumbed down experience so that the average Joe can buy into the hype of the world cup and purchase our product while slapping loyal supporters, who have purchased all your previous games, right in the face.

Wow Rhyer, chill brother you need to get out and get some of this:sex011:

 

[OnTheBall]

Meaning, **** you all, we want money and so are appealing to the mass market by naming it Rugby World Cup even though we have no licensed world cup stadia, no license of the hosts and a dumbed down experience so that the average Joe can buy into the hype of the world cup and purchase our product while slapping loyal supporters, who have purchased all your previous games, right in the face.

Dude, at least give the game a chance and play it before you start insulting it.

 

[lionmaull]

Yes and giving the user the control to be able to do this as well. Doing so, however, would take some of the fun out of attacking as the defense would be even more impenetrable. Some people would like the realism, and the challenge. Our impression was that it becomes less fun - which is always our primary goal in designing the gameplay.

Maybe if we can crack a way to keep it as fun, we'll see this in the future. It didn't get in for the RWC.

I agree it would make the defense more impenetrable, but yet the defense would also never get a turnover if they didn't contest the ruck and a turnovers happen all the time, that is why a love the rucking aspect of rugby as brutal as it , it really is like a chess match. Plus the defense has already got an xtra weapon, with the quick pick up if they isolate the player. Is quick pick up at ruck available for both side of the ball, because I only saw it used on defense in one of the videos? Later I will detail a ruck system, that I have been thinking about for 4 years now, it is based on the system we have used in the past with a few modifications, don't know much about programming but I believe it would not be a difficult system to implement because it is similar to what you have in place. In any case I am happy that you guys are trying different avenues with the rucking, that is how things get improved. "On a funny note my xbox 360 just got the red ring of death last nite, can you believe that, just before the demo.:lolI,m hoping its released in US xbox live)(Got a ps3 but don't know when demo will be released in US). Good news I hald my ---- over this morning to repair shop(put every thing else on hold), they should be able to fix by 4:00pm today. And that is why I was able to laugh about it !!!
Cheers and Salud

 

[lionmaull]

I like it and it's similar to what has been discussed.

No real incentive to ever select anything other than "Hold Back" as an option which leads to very negative and unbalanced gameplay. Not fun. More thought required though as it's one of the directions this new system could take us if it proves successful. Interested to hear your feedback once it's out.

Very good system Raziel, almost as good as the one I am going to post.:lol: No just kidding actually very, very, good. Would love to see a system like that, and it seems like it could be a very easy system to implement,(as programmer says"yea right!!!!) But, AJ I have to politely dissagree, using the "hold Back tatic" you would never get a ruck turn over on defense if you did that, and you could lose ruck possession if on offense if you don't send atleast some players into ruck.(Plus you said it your self AJ most players have a tendency to be aggressive in the ruck, its (Almost like an advanced Rock, Paper, Scissor, Risk/Reward system) Put yea HOLY ----- it really does sound like an awesome idea Raziel(Please Consider AJ)for Rugby World and Club 2012(ha,ha just joking). The causual gamer could just leave it on standard or arcade mode and the hard core gamer could use the the advance tactics to his advantage. Man, I can't wait to try this out tomorrow. Great, great, great, stuff.
Cheers and Salud

 

[lionmaull]

Meaning, **** you all, we want money and so are appealing to the mass market by naming it Rugby World Cup even though we have no licensed world cup stadia, no license of the hosts and a dumbed down experience so that the average Joe can buy into the hype of the world cup and purchase our product while slapping loyal supporters, who have purchased all your previous games, right in the face.

Hey, please think. They are giving you the option to try a demo, most "LOYAL SUPPORTERS" know there is a demo comming out. I think it is as fair as it gets. I don't think they would purposely want to alienate the loyal supporter as we are the ones that will pass the word around, if the game is good or not. You are the one slapping the developer in the face, because you have not even tried the game. Give it a chance, and if you don't like it, then discuss what you don't like about it so they can maybe try to improve it. This is the same type of thought as when people say it is just like 08," IT IS NOT", and that you can tell just by the new systems in place. Now ,will it be recieved and seen as a better system or worse, we shall see, I personally think it will be better. Atleast they have the ______ to change some things and try.
Cheers and Salud

 

[raziel_eire]

Okay, so let me put some more ideas into this rucking idea to see if we can't flesh it out, this is all a bit of a brain dump, first swing at it type thing, so bear with any typo's or going off track....

In terms of incentives to not use "Hold Back" all the time, I'd hope that a chance of gaining possession was incentive enough to select one of the other 2 options.

For a defending player, "Hold Back" should offer a very minimal to zero chance of gaining possession. Nobody is going to offer the tackler any backup, so he's unlikely
going to win the ball back.

For an attacking player, using this option will always bring 1 player into the ruck in addition to the ball carrier and tackler (otherwise it wouldn't be a ruck), so in
the instance of both sides having Rucking Aggression set to "Hold Back", the chance of retaining possession is always greatly on the attackers side.

It should be primarily a defence reorganisation and keep them off the try line tactic, the extra bodies across your defensive line forgoing the chance of taking the
ball. Hard yards are definately still possible for the attacker using the tackle breaking ability currently in the game and also with the quick pick & go option you've
implemented.

Imagine this scenario - your defending on the 40m line, your players are abit all over the place so you set you Rucking Agression to "Hold Back" to minimize your
opponents yardage and reset some of your defensive line. The attacking side pick and go from your poorly contested ruck, from the first pass a tackle is broken by a
forward/big centre and after a clever offload the ball is spun wide to a winger who gets well advanced from the rest of the attacking team but does have 1 of his team
mates close by.
Your fullback puts in a great tackle and stops him just inside the 22. You've got another 2-3 defenders now arriving to the breakdown area. If you keep your Rucking
Aggression to "Hold Back", your newly arrived defenders do not get involved but basically stand guard to the sides of the ruck. As the attacker had another 1 player in
close support, the ruck is very much going to swing in their favour and retain possession.
Selecting Rucking Aggression tactics of either "Balanced" or "Pile In" you would probably have won that ruck and now be on the counter attack... so why would you not do
it?

So the positives behind "Hold Back" for a defending player?
1. More players in defence to make a tackle
2. Greatly minimize opponents immediate yardage around the fringe

The negatives?
1. Vastly reduced or zero chance of gaining possession (perhaps say only 10% and thats with the opponent also using "Hold Back", if they have it on either of the more
aggressive settings then they will be practically guaranteed it)
2. On constant defence until an error or mistake is made


What about "Hold Back" as a Rucking Aggression strategy for a player already in posession?
Positives:
1. More players in your line to pass too/run lines

Negatives:
1. If your opponent has either higher setting chosen, you'll very, very likely lose possession in the next ruck


So it basically becomes a sort of game of chess... trying to out guess you're opponent and what strategy they are on or even luring them in to a false sense of security by using "Hold Back" for 3 phases so he starts to use it too knowing he is always likely to win it back as he has a support player in the tackle, then you switch to "Pile In" in the next phase and smash him at ruck time!!!

Or another, simpler idea would be to automatically reset the Rucking Aggression back to "Balanced" after each phase, to ensure your making a definitive choice otherwise it remains at the most default and game-balancing option?

Anyone elses thoughts & ideas welcomed.

And cheers for your feedback so far Lionmaul

 

[Milla]

Meaning, **** you all, we want money and so are appealing to the mass market by naming it Rugby World Cup even though we have no licensed world cup stadia, no license of the hosts and a dumbed down experience so that the average Joe can buy into the hype of the world cup and purchase our product while slapping loyal supporters, who have purchased all your previous games, right in the face.

Heh, you make it sound so exploitative and sinister. It's much more symbiotic than that. Developers need gamers to buy their games so they can keep making games. For a game to achieve that commercial success it needs to be fun for most people. Fun is a very important feature of a video game.

 

[j-dawg]

The one thing I don't like the look of in this game is the 'fade out' and 'fade in' between cut scenes and things during play. It just doesn't feel natural and it doesn't happen during the real thing. I would suggest doing what rugby 08 does and flashing a logo across the screen, something like that or just cutting from one bit to another.

 

[lionmaull]

Okay, so let me put some more ideas into this rucking idea to see if we can't flesh it out, this is all a bit of a brain dump, first swing at it type thing, so bear with any typo's or going off track....

In terms of incentives to not use "Hold Back" all the time, I'd hope that a chance of gaining possession was incentive enough to select one of the other 2 options.

For a defending player, "Hold Back" should offer a very minimal to zero chance of gaining possession. Nobody is going to offer the tackler any backup, so he's unlikely
going to win the ball back.

For an attacking player, using this option will always bring 1 player into the ruck in addition to the ball carrier and tackler (otherwise it wouldn't be a ruck), so in
the instance of both sides having Rucking Aggression set to "Hold Back", the chance of retaining possession is always greatly on the attackers side.

It should be primarily a defence reorganisation and keep them off the try line tactic, the extra bodies across your defensive line forgoing the chance of taking the
ball. Hard yards are definately still possible for the attacker using the tackle breaking ability currently in the game and also with the quick pick & go option you've
implemented.

Imagine this scenario - your defending on the 40m line, your players are abit all over the place so you set you Rucking Agression to "Hold Back" to minimize your
opponents yardage and reset some of your defensive line. The attacking side pick and go from your poorly contested ruck, from the first pass a tackle is broken by a
forward/big centre and after a clever offload the ball is spun wide to a winger who gets well advanced from the rest of the attacking team but does have 1 of his team
mates close by.
Your fullback puts in a great tackle and stops him just inside the 22. You've got another 2-3 defenders now arriving to the breakdown area. If you keep your Rucking
Aggression to "Hold Back", your newly arrived defenders do not get involved but basically stand guard to the sides of the ruck. As the attacker had another 1 player in
close support, the ruck is very much going to swing in their favour and retain possession.
Selecting Rucking Aggression tactics of either "Balanced" or "Pile In" you would probably have won that ruck and now be on the counter attack... so why would you not do
it?

So the positives behind "Hold Back" for a defending player?
1. More players in defence to make a tackle
2. Greatly minimize opponents immediate yardage around the fringe

The negatives?
1. Vastly reduced or zero chance of gaining possession (perhaps say only 10% and thats with the opponent also using "Hold Back", if they have it on either of the more
aggressive settings then they will be practically guaranteed it)
2. On constant defence until an error or mistake is made


What about "Hold Back" as a Rucking Aggression strategy for a player already in posession?
Positives:
1. More players in your line to pass too/run lines

Negatives:
1. If your opponent has either higher setting chosen, you'll very, very likely lose possession in the next ruck


So it basically becomes a sort of game of chess... trying to out guess you're opponent and what strategy they are on or even luring them in to a false sense of security by using "Hold Back" for 3 phases so he starts to use it too knowing he is always likely to win it back as he has a support player in the tackle, then you switch to "Pile In" in the next phase and smash him at ruck time!!!

Or another, simpler idea would be to automatically reset the Rucking Aggression back to "Balanced" after each phase, to ensure your making a definitive choice otherwise it remains at the most default and game-balancing option?

Anyone elses thoughts & ideas welcomed.

And cheers for your feedback so far Lionmaul

Really good stuff, Raziel, and it would seem like it would be a very easy thing to implement into the game. Hey its seems a little premature to talk about these things now before the game is even release,, but "hey" it does take time to implement these thing, I don't know why I get the feeling, we will get another ***le sooner then later that will offer some club teams aswell, so good to get these ideas out quick. I will post my idea which is somewhat similar to the one you suggested. Thats what I like HB, and AJ and the crew they actually take the time to listen, some times they can make things work, sometimes they can't or it won't function good in a video game translation. All these people critisize but the fact remains and you can check the poll I put up, is that Rugby 08 was enjoyed by most people, and hb was the company to bring us that enjoyment, support them and I can garuntee with a little time and postive feedback of things we like or don't like, they will create the rugby game of our dreams.
Cheer and Salud