Rugby 2012 - Ruck/Maul System Improvement Suggestions

[OnTheBall]

While some of the suggested rucking systems on these forums would be great for rugby junkies, I feel that casual gamers and those who know little about rugby would be put off by advanced rucking.
This is why I think that, if HB deem an anvanced rucking system suitable it should be optional, just like the "advanced" lineouts were in 08.
I suggest that for casual gamers or even lesser rugby enthusiasts, that a refined version of the 08 ruckin system should be an option.
For this I think that a simple system based on numbers should be offered. Player size should be taken into account while every player from 1-15 should be more active ruckers, unlike in 08 when players would stand by and watch the opposition steal the ball. With this system I would like to see available players (small backs or other wise) near the tackled teammate helping to secure posession.
I feel that this, if refined properly would add a greater degree of realism for the casual gamer, with the possible option down the line of adding advanced rucking.

 

[Duckdee]

Just a quick knock up for a simple system that's been banging around my head. You see who you have control of, press the button, and move on to the next player.

Attacking: A = Ruck, B = Pick and drive
Defending: A = Ruck, B = Attempt steal

Scrum half would run in as usual, and would set up to pass if no-one takes the ball beforehand, or you tell him to snipe round. A quick one button pick up and go is the main thing I'm after.

 

[sambãd5]

watching a replay of the crusaders v cheeters today, i notinced something...

why not have it automatic rucking, unless the defence decideds to contest the ball? ie, if your defending you will have a option to ie, press X, to contest the ball, then, press [] to enter players, and O to remove them again from the ruck for both teams? this allows for counter rucking and retaining the possession if it fails. and if you contest every ruck, like real life, your fatiuge picks up likewise if you dont contest any, you will be less fatiuged?

 

[ranger]

watching a replay of the crusaders v cheeters today, i notinced something...

why not have it automatic rucking, unless the defence decideds to contest the ball? ie, if your defending you will have a option to ie, press X, to contest the ball, then, press [] to enter players, and O to remove them again from the ruck for both teams? this allows for counter rucking and retaining the possession if it fails. and if you contest every ruck, like real life, your fatiuge picks up likewise if you dont contest any, you will be less fatiuged?

Thats pretty much exactly my idea. I was for automatic rucking, except you can choose to put players in manually if you're isolated and your forwards are too far away so you send backs in.
Or if you think there is a real chance of a turnover so you overcommit and throw backs in there to try and turn the tide.

My negatives to using manual rucking wasnt fatigue though, it was the holes created in your backline/ forwards having to fill in where backs would be. That would leave you weak on defense and unprepared on attack.

 

[rugfan]

the advanced setting looks absoutly perfect!

 

[Hurricane Nate]

I like the idea of auto rucking and the ability to choose to commit players or to bring them back into the defensive line.
Backs need to be able to join rucks also which is a common occurance these days, whoevers closest should be the first
players to join the ruck first


I also think the ruck needs to be decided on the tackle.

If a player breaks a tackle and makes it pass the advantage line the team with the ball should retain posession almost all
of the time, unless they isolate themselves considerbly.

If the player with the ball is tackled behind the advantage line thats when turnovers should occur or atleast slow the ball
down and force the attacking team to commit most of their forwards or they will lose posession.

 

[ranger]

I like the idea of auto rucking and the ability to choose to commit players or to bring them back into the defensive line.
Backs need to be able to join rucks also which is a common occurance these days, whoevers closest should be the first
players to join the ruck first


I also think the ruck needs to be decided on the tackle.

If a player breaks a tackle and makes it pass the advantage line the team with the ball should retain posession almost all
of the time, unless they isolate themselves considerbly.

If the player with the ball is tackled behind the advantage line thats when turnovers should occur or atleast slow the ball
down and force the attacking team to commit most of their forwards or they will lose posession.

I'm definitely a fan of the idea, but i think its important that backs do not join in the rucking automatically. It should be your decision weather you want to get them involved because its very risky.

Imagine if you get tackled outwide and then your 2nd5, centre, fullback and wing all get sucked into the ruck without your say-so. Then the opposition win the ball and slices right through your props marking up in the midfield and away from your lock covering the fullback spot. That would be infuriating, especially if it kept happening.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

I have been doing a lot of thinking about winning ruck ball and how it could work properly as a game mechanic. There is never going to be an idea which will appeal to everyone, so over the last few weeks I've had various ideas go through my mind. At the moment I have 3 different ideas. Only one of those is actually fully formed at this point. As with any idea, I'm sure there's room for improvement or tweaks.

Anyhow for this post I'm going to refer to the idea which is the most developed.

Method A:

The basis for the idea behind this method was a reaction to most of the ideas I've seen suggested in this thread. I've noticed that most people are more or less in two camps with regards to their ideal ruck ball winning solution. Those who'd like to win the ball via a button-based skill mechanic and those who'd like to win it by an automated process taking into consideration more reasonable factors than were available/implemented in the previous games.

Some of the factors in the automated suggestions have included:

The number of forwards in the ruck.
Whether the advantage line was breached.
The ball winning skill statistics of the forwards who engage the ruck.
How isolated the previous attacking play has made the player in possession at the tackle point.
The speed at which players were added to the ruck immediately after the tackle (also allowing nearby backs to join to assist this).
Fatigue rising for teams who try and counter every ruck, but lowering if the team doesn't contest, enabling a more powerful counter ruck attempt later.


Nearly all of these ideas have merit and they aren't too bad in of themselves, but they do lean heavily toward favouring the attacking team. This is most likely a reaction to many players experiencing their ball being turned over in occasional unfair circumstances in previous editions of the game.

I personally believe very strongly that the game would benefit from being developed from an assumed off-line multi-player standpoint and adapting the AI to play in line with the most likely tactics that a human opponent would employ.

As I stated above there are an equal number (or thereabouts) who'd like to win their ball via a button-based skill mechanic and after quite a bit of consideration I can't see any reason that both preferences can't be implemented.

I'd like to break down my idea by demonstrating how I could see it working, so here we go.

At a tackle there would be the tackler and the tackled player. The attacking and defending teams will make the decision to add players to the ruck based on whether they are wanting to retain or acquire possession of the ball. This would be the familiar X button option from previous games.

My additional mechanism would be that after each push of X to add a man to the ruck, the player could push Triangle, or R3 (or it could be mapped to another suitable button) to bring up a small bar appearing over the top of the ruck at the point of the tackle as each player joins the ruck. A meter would shoot up the bar which would have to be stopped in a small green-zone before it hit a red-zone at the top of it(using the same button as was used to bring up the button). The meter would travel slower or faster depending on how good the player who joined the ruck is at winning possession of the ball. If a player was especially good at winning ball, the chance of a turn-over (or of keeping your ball if your the attacking side) is greatly increased.

Here are the conditions of this method though:

Only up to 3 contesters or protectors of the ball can be used in a ruck, (3 quick meters).
The first contester or protector of the ball does not receive anywhere near as much fatigue as the remaining two (if you decided to contest with 3). The reason for that is that the 2nd and 3rd person to join the ruck would have to work harder to secure possession. Also, a player trying to put three men into a ruck is really trying to steal or keep the ball and there should be reasonable fatigue cost for those players.

The players from both teams can add more players to the ruck if they want to but these only offer 50-60% of the benefit of the first three.

Strategy element:

I believe this method offers a very strategic element to the game, as players will be asking themselves "how many ball winners should I throw into this ruck"?

With this method there will be players missing the green-zone, just through haste, having one eye on their next backs move and just bad timing.

Human players will be weighting up the benefit of going for a ball-win against missing the green-zone and losing stamina.

There will be occasions that you'll be playing a friend and only add 1, whilst they add their whole 3. They could well win the ball on that occasion, but may do so at the cost of fatigue. That won ruck may not do them any good in broken play. Also, that fatigue-loss might very well benefit you later in the match as some of their forwards have slowed or are easier to bump off.

Players may end up saving some of the energy of their forwards and sacrifice some rucks in the hope that their forwards will be physically still strong and capable later in the game.


Overall benefit:

I believe with the right balancing of player physical/ball winning statistics this method would enable players to have a strategic and tactical element within the game. There are already meters over the scrums and no-one seems to mind those. These 3 (at most) quick meters would be over within 3-4 seconds (about the time of a current ruck). This would give players a much deeper feeling of control.

Despite the amount of words I've used to describe this, it's actually a remarkably easy system to use. Meter speeds can vary by difficulty level and this would also be a solid challenge against a well programmed AI.

 

[Dexter Tauvao]

I love the advanced idea from best_fullback

Also what Id like to see in mauling is the ability to add/ remove players, to a limit of about 7 in the maul.

Using the bar system from rugby 08, each time you add a player while the other team has 'power' you're power increases a little, and when you add a player when the other player has no 'power' you gain a lot of strength in the maul.

But when you remove players (by pressing L3??) you're power either drains quicker, and/or momentum is lost, therefore, if you add and remove players at a controlled rate (as you have to do in real life) the maul will be far more effective realistic. (removing players when you have a lot of momentum will give you a longer time to re-add a player to the maul)

Defending this maul would mean you would have to out power the other teams rucks , which would take superb timing and skill. This would be difficult, *as it is in real life*, but if you manage to stop maul, the attacking team would only have 2-4 seconds to clear the ball before there's a collapse.



Applying too much power will cause the maul to collapse in your favour, and youll win a penalty. If you dont have enough, your maul will fold on itself.

Also, depending on how much power each team has at a given time in the maul (assumedly when both bars are filled to about three quarters), players under pressure at the front will 'fall out' of the maul. Thus they can be added again, though they might slow your maul down due to them falling in the middle of the maul.

I recommend x to add players and L3 to remove players??

 

[Duckdee]

I have been doing a lot of thinking about winning ruck ball and how it could work properly as a game mechanic. There is never going to be an idea which will appeal to everyone, so over the last few weeks I've had various ideas go through my mind. At the moment I have 3 different ideas. Only one of those is actually fully formed at this point. As with any idea, I'm sure there's room for improvement or tweaks.

Anyhow for this post I'm going to refer to the idea which is the most developed.

Method A:

I could live with that.

 

[nz0003]

Really like best_fullback's suggestions.

Regarding the Simple System I think the team in possession of the ball should have one less button to press, otherwise there would be too much turnovers. Especially with the new rules, it's almost impossible to get a ruck turnover!

The Advanced System is epic though. Infact a lot of ideas in here are, lets hope HB are reading!

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Really like best_fullback's suggestions.

Regarding the Simple System I think the team in possession of the ball should have one less button to press, otherwise there would be too much turnovers. Especially with the new rules, it's almost impossible to get a ruck turnover!

The Advanced System is epic though. Infact a lot of ideas in here are, lets hope HB are reading!

I really like the part of best fullbacks idea where you can hold onto the ball until some support players hit the ruck, but if you don't release quickly you run a good chance of giving away a penalty.

The only problem is that he has the same add player button as the release the ball button, so no-one would really join whilst your holding on (at least as I understand it). Still that's very minor, just a button mapping situation.

 

[best_fullback]

I really like the part of best fullbacks idea where you can hold onto the ball until some support players hit the ruck, but if you don't release quickly you run a good chance of giving away a penalty.

The only problem is that he has the same add player button as the release the ball button, so no-one would really join whilst your holding on (at least as I understand it). Still that's very minor, just a button mapping situation.

Yeah at the top of my post i've said all the buttons are just for reference only and it is just coincidence I have put X for both! But yeah it wouldn't make sense to have X for both.

Coming onto your suggestions C.A. Iversen my thoughts are:

I personally believe very strongly that the game would benefit from being developed from an assumed off-line multi-player standpoint and adapting the AI to play in line with the most likely tactics that a human opponent would employ.

Totally agree with that. As it is presumably going to be a online and offline multiplayer it is vital that there is enough human interaction that can give a balanced competition whilst the AI being sculpted in a way that will make them a challenge in this position for offline single player games.

At a tackle there would be the tackler and the tackled player. The attacking and defending teams will make the decision to add players to the ruck based on whether they are wanting to retain or acquire possession of the ball. This would be the familiar X button option from previous games.

My additional mechanism would be that after each push of X to add a man to the ruck, the player could push Triangle, or R3 (or it could be mapped to another suitable button) to bring up a small bar appearing over the top of the ruck at the point of the tackle as each player joins the ruck. A meter would shoot up the bar which would have to be stopped in a small green-zone before it hit a red-zone at the top of it(using the same button as was used to bring up the button). The meter would travel slower or faster depending on how good the player who joined the ruck is at winning possession of the ball. If a player was especially good at winning ball, the chance of a turn-over (or of keeping your ball if your the attacking side) is greatly increased.

Here are the conditions of this method though:

Only up to 3 contesters or protectors of the ball can be used in a ruck, (3 quick meters).
The first contester or protector of the ball does not receive anywhere near as much fatigue as the remaining two (if you decided to contest with 3). The reason for that is that the 2nd and 3rd person to join the ruck would have to work harder to secure possession. Also, a player trying to put three men into a ruck is really trying to steal or keep the ball and there should be reasonable fatigue cost for those players.

Gonna play Devil's Advocate on this a bit:

• You talk of the meter popping above the head of each rucker as they are added by pressing triangle, do you think this may not be quite fiddly?
• When the bar ramps up and you hit it perfectly does this automatically win the ruck or just improve that players power in that ruck?
• You say that you can only use 3 contesters/protectors, do you think it would preferable that the first 3 ruckers there automatically had their bars appear as they are pretty much always the people who will win the ball, and the rest will secure it?
• What will happen in the tackle area before the ruck is formed? Will the player automatically release the ball? What will happen if you are a rucker and reach the tackle area first alone?

I really like the idea. Look forward to your comments. Its nice to see a wide spectrum of ideas on here regarding the tackle and ruck area.

Im formulating some ideas how the maul could work, as well as bridging the gap between the breakdown and the attacking platform behind it so watch this space!

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Yeah at the top of my post i've said all the buttons are just for reference only and it is just coincidence I have put X for both! But yeah it wouldn't make sense to have X for both.

Coming onto your suggestions C.A. Iversen my thoughts are:



Totally agree with that. As it is presumably going to be a online and offline multiplayer it is vital that there is enough human interaction that can give a balanced competition whilst the AI being sculpted in a way that will make them a challenge in this position for offline single player games.




Gonna play Devil's Advocate on this a bit:

• You talk of the meter popping above the head of each rucker as they are added by pressing triangle, do you think this may not be quite fiddly?
• When the bar ramps up and you hit it perfectly does this automatically win the ruck or just improve that players power in that ruck?
• You say that you can only use 3 contesters/protectors, do you think it would preferable that the first 3 ruckers there automatically had their bars appear as they are pretty much always the people who will win the ball, and the rest will secure it?
• What will happen in the tackle area before the ruck is formed? Will the player automatically release the ball? What will happen if you are a rucker and reach the tackle area first alone?

I really like the idea. Look forward to your comments. Its nice to see a wide spectrum of ideas on here regarding the tackle and ruck area.

Im formulating some ideas how the maul could work, as well as bridging the gap between the breakdown and the attacking platform behind it so watch this space!

I'll just address your bullet points as I think they are the important questions. Before I do though, (this is going to sound a bit kiss-ass, but anyhow) I actually see my ruck system idea as standing on the shoulders of your original advanced ruck system.

* A player who adds 3 contesters/protectors (lack of better words for those sadly) of the ball would not have meters or bars over all the players heads, they'd all be in exactly the same place, bang, bang, bang one after the other, which would make it somewhat a timing challenge. It'd also be quick, which is what we'd want.

* When you hit the green-zone it wouldn't be automatic win ball, but it would be a major increase of turn-over opportunity. For example contester 1's ball-winning stats might be 65 and would jump to 85. Contester two might be 69, jumping up to 89, Contester 3 might be 80 and only go upto the maximum 99. Whether they succeed or not, the fact you've made them work so hard in that ruck would lower their stamina by about 3-4 or maybe 5 points. That might sound a lot, but not every player is going to be in that contesting 3 every time. It should cause a more logical turn-over, as really only the first 2-3 players to a ruck ever really seem to steal or defend the ball (well 90% of the time).

* The only reason I wouldn't want the first 3 players automatically contesting every time is that the human player may not want to contest that ruck in that way, they might just want to save the stamina for later in the match and have a slightly higher turn-over chance late in the match. Hence the strategy element. You end up with a variety of outcome possibilities. Player one may put 1 contesting man in the ruck and win it, as he might hit the accuracy bar and also put in 4 other players which aren't contesting. Player 2 might've put all three of his in, but missed the mark on all three!

* I realised after putting all that information down that the initial release/roll away aspect with regard to the tackler wasn't covered and I automatically thought that would be a very quick thing to do using your method, as it's a mere quick flick of the X button or whichever would work. Maybe R3 release?

Hope this clears it up a bit. It's actually quite simple, but requires a bit of text to flesh out and explain, so may look like a lot of work.

 

[scuubasteve]

As previously stated, there are really only two scenarios where turnovers occur. The first is if a player is isolated in possesion of the ball by the tackler. This is a tackled ball scenario, not a ruck.
A ruck forms once two or more players bind over the tackled player. Once a ruck is formed it is supposed to be that no hands are used.

So the first part is easy really. If an attacking player is tackled and a defending player arives first, then he'll challenge for the ball.
If the defender is there trying to rip the ball away for long enough before a supporting attacker arrives (to clean him out) then a turnover will occur.
The better the skill of the defender the faster the turnover can happen. The attack can choose to hold onto the ball, giving away a penalty for holding on, or he can release it and concede the turnover.
The defending player has to arrive through the gate and will be penalised for not doing this (at medium and advanced levels). If another attacking player arrives at the tackle before the turnover can be completed then the defender will get taken out and possession will be temporarily secured for the attackers.

I wouldn't even bother forcing gamers to push X to have to join the ruck. If you simply run into contact at the ruck (like running into contact to perform a tackle) then you'll join over and start contesting.
So instead of bottom mashing to join it becomes about the proximity of players to the tackle and the momentum of attack (because defenders on the back foot would have to get around through the gate to contest the ball.


The second type of turnover that occurs is when a ruck is flooded by defenders. Again it is about speed of numbers to the tackle ball and coming through the gate. The old JLR used joining and leaving to contest rucks, but it was flawed in that you could overturn far greater numberical advantages by removing and adding new players. It should just be about adding numbers to the point where you have it won. Removing players would make your ruck weaker, but once possesion was secured or lost it would make a difference to remove numbers. The tradeoff for throwing too many players in trying to flood a rruck would be holes in your defensive line if you don't pull it off. These days in real life rugby once a ruck is secured then you have near zero chance of countring. So rucks should remain about the balance of numbers joining, but should be a lot shorter in duration and the scales should tip quickly. So if you manager to get 3 to 1 then you'll secure it very quickly. 2 vs 2 would see the balance remain even longer (but individual skills would provide another level of difference).

By forcing the defenders to come through the gate to contest you give the advantage to the attacking team, like real life. And you force the defenders to pick and choose when to try and go for that turnover and when to instead stack the defensive line to prevent linebreaks.

 

[marb10]

In professional rugby, you seldom see every forward going into a ruck. The X button that puts players into rucks should be more effective i.e one tap of X puts one player into ruck, whilst the rest of the forwards fan out along the D line like this; Pillars - Two players close, either side of the ruck. Key - Sets on the first reciever/forward inside of the flyhalf. Block - Sets inbetween the pillar and the key. Perhaps the player's "positioning stat" could affect their positioning around the ruck e.g. Standing offside, too far away from the ruck; opening up gaps.

If the user decides to flood the ruck with forwards in an attempt to counter- ruck then you can add more players by pressing the X button. The success rate of over-turning the ruck depends on the player's individual rucking ability, both offence and defence, how many players are in the ruck and also the tackled players ability to place the ball back (This could be part of the handling stat?) Hastily adding players to a ruck could result in the "coming in from the side" offence etc.

 

[yafeka]

I agree, they are. Being experienced with rugby I would always choose the more advanced option. The problem is a system like this will have to be implemented if there is also an advanced system to tap into the casual gamer market, which I am sure HB will be aiming for. Its just a problem trying to find which one would work best and still allow for a free flowing game.



Possibly having and button assigned to hold onto the ball/player would be preferable. Then the ball is released automatically (encouraging quick phases), as is the tackled player, unless the button is pressed and will only again be released when pressed a further time.


I agree with Ranger that there should be a lot of aspects and stats taken into account in and before a ruck to decide the outcome automatically (infact I did write the same thing onto my second post but the forum said I was over the word limit so had to be removed!). Ideally his I think that is what everyone would want because then it would provide the correct outcome to ruck situation rather than the arbitrary result as in 06/08 etc and allow more time to concentrate on the whole pitch rather than just the ruck. However, this then increases demand for accurate stats, or as I would prefer, an edit mode where all the players stats can be adjusted if inaccurate.

I think the idea of 'support' and 'automatic rucking' is great and the idea that by pressing X will add backs if isolated or trying to turn over ball is great also. I am just a bit concerned whether HB will be able to implement an automatic system well because there are so many AI parameters and stats to take into account. We'll just have to see what they say.

instead of pressing X theres R3 like all other rugby games to steal

 

[Terry Talent]

I dont like the simple one, i think that will promote to many easy turnovers. and also the team that wins the ball at the breakdown is the team with more numbers at the breakdown. so it should be easier to win a ruck if you hav more players at the breakdown first,and harder if you hav less players

 

[Terry Talent]

I agree, i like the Advanced idea. but there has to be something where the team with more numbers to the breakdown first should have the advantage at the ruck area

 

[MunsterMan]

Late to chime in, haven't read the thread so don't shoot me!

I think the flow of the game is important so would be against any mini game at ruck time. I would prefer a much simpler solution - Numbers and the skills of the players, the ruck should be one by the team who rucks more agressively by putting more players in. Obiously stronger players with better rucking technique will be more effective than poor players. Similar in a way to the previous HB studios games but more effective, I can remember piling 6-7 into a ruck against 2 oe 3 opponents and not winning it.

Along with this there needs to be an option for the attacking team to hold on to the ball on the ground, risking giving away a penalty to retain possesion. Just hold down a button when tackled and the ball won't be released until you do. Hold on too long and you give away a penalty, simple as

Apologies If it has been suggested already.