South Africa most overrated International team!

[kusta]

First of all you dont have to agree or not....

But i feel The Springboks are overrated, i feel we never really dominate games, we just get by scraping most games.

We hardly ever really win by big scores(over 15points) especially over NZ and AUS. The last time we ever really dominated was in 2009, ever since then we've never really done much. We dont have any cup to prove it too to make my point. I feel we are a bit off in terms of skills to NZ and AUS(sorry im only comparing us to them, but to be the best you have to beat the best.) To be honest too i doubt we'll ever be better than NZ, AUS maybe. We are too inconsistent, probably ONE of the most inconsistent teams on the International stage

This might sound like im trolling, but im not before you all jump on my case! Just saying whats on my mind.

 

[Larksea]

just hire a New Zealander as coach, everyone's doing it!

 

[TRF_heineken]

First of all you dont have to agree or not....

But i feel The Springboks are overrated, i feel we never really dominate games, we just get by scraping most games.

We hardly ever really win by big scores(over 15points) especially over NZ and AUS. The last time we ever really dominated was in 2009, ever since then we've never really done much. We dont have any cup to prove it too to make my point. I feel we are a bit off in terms of skills to NZ and AUS(sorry im only comparing us to them, but to be the best you have to beat the best.) To be honest too i doubt we'll ever be better than NZ, AUS maybe. We are too inconsistent, probably ONE of the most inconsistent teams on the International stage

This might sound like im trolling, but im not before you all jump on my case! Just saying whats on my mind.

This is definitely trolling!

Whenever you make a comment, it's usually negative. You only ever make positive remarks when it's about the Sharks or Willem Alberts or Bismarck du Plessis.

In 2009 we had a great team with a shitty coach. In 2010, most of those great players were either injured or abroad. In 2011, our focus was only towards the World Cup, still with a shitty coach who was out of its depth, yet we made the QF's and only lost due to some shoddy refereeing.

Then 2012, new coach, 14 new caps and many of our experienced players out of the picture, we got series win over England, we smashed the Wallabies convincingly at Loftus and had a good end of year tour!

Now it's 2013, and yet you ***** and moan even though the Boks didn't play a single game yet. How patriotic of you. How about you leave your criticism AFTER the boks have played this year!!!

 

[Maverick1987]

This is definitely trolling!

Whenever you make a comment, it's usually negative. You only ever make positive remarks when it's about the Sharks or Willem Alberts or Bismarck du Plessis.

In 2009 we had a great team with a shitty coach. In 2010, most of those great players were either injured or abroad. In 2011, our focus was only towards the World Cup, still with a shitty coach who was out of its depth, yet we made the QF's and only lost due to some shoddy refereeing.

Then 2012, new coach, 14 new caps and many of our experienced players out of the picture, we got series win over England, we smashed the Wallabies convincingly at Loftus and had a good end of year tour!

Now it's 2013, and yet you ***** and moan even though the Boks didn't play a single game yet. How patriotic of you. How about you leave your criticism AFTER the boks have played this year!!!

I agree with you Heineken

Can't see how anyone can say Boks are over rated

Won 2 world cups consistently beat everyone in the NH and fairly often beat NZ and Aus .

Probably better than Aus atm IMO

I think the way SA play means that winning by massive margins don't happen . When your gameplan is based around territory and set piece just like the England team in 2003 you tebd to be in full control of games and win by 10 points or so it's just not flattering that's all . The power, agression and intensity they bring is rarely matched by anyone in world rugby

 

[psychic duck]

South Africa are in a transitional period after lots of the great players from the successful 2007 and 2009 left the side after Bryce Lawrence ruined their farewell tournament. SA were never going to replace quality players like Matfield, Juan Smith or du Preez who were the amongst the best players of their generation easily. Add to that the loss of Jaque Fourie has been hard as well.

Just a shame the Springboks had a dim witted coach to lead all those players. They will need to rebuild now and work to getting stronger again but it won't happen overnight.

I think the way SA play means that winning by massive margins don't happen . When your gameplan is based around territory and set piece just like the England team in 2003 you tebd to be in full control of games and win by 10 points or so it's just not flattering that's all . The power, agression and intensity they bring is rarely matched by anyone in world rugby

Not sure what your are on about here. That England side thrashed plenty of sides and basically all of the 6 Nations got whipped by that England era side at some point. Even South Africa were utterly destroyed by them.

South Africa have in the past beaten England 36-0 in the 2007 RWC, a comparable thrashing in 2008 the year after. And dealt plenty big wins against the other 6 Nations sides over the years. They even beat Wales 96-13 once.

So both those sides have thrashed teams a lot with their forwards style.

 

[kusta]

This is definitely trolling!

Whenever you make a comment, it's usually negative. You only ever make positive remarks when it's about the Sharks or Willem Alberts or Bismarck du Plessis.

In 2009 we had a great team with a shitty coach. In 2010, most of those great players were either injured or abroad. In 2011, our focus was only towards the World Cup, still with a shitty coach who was out of its depth, yet we made the QF's and only lost due to some shoddy refereeing.

Then 2012, new coach, 14 new caps and many of our experienced players out of the picture, we got series win over England, we smashed the Wallabies convincingly at Loftus and had a good end of year tour!

Now it's 2013, and yet you ***** and moan even though the Boks didn't play a single game yet. How patriotic of you. How about you leave your criticism AFTER the boks have played this year!!!

Firstly we hardly ever had a good end of year tour last year....all those games we won marginly and i dont even know how many tries we scored on that tour but doubt it was more than 10.

Secondly im telling you we not gonna win the Rugby Championship this season, in fact im expecting another mediocre performance.

All im saying is they overrated, not that they a bad team.

 

[kusta]

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Springboks/Results

Basically sums up last season and its hardly flash. Sure u gonna say we were in a rebuilding phase but we had some incumbent guys there, Morne Steyn, Jean De Villiers(Most overrated player in SA but story for another thread), Frans Steyn, Pat Lambie(been in the set up for a while now), JP Pietersen, Bryan Habana, Francois Houggard, Pierre Spies, Beast, Bismarck, Jannie Du Plessis....To me thats nearly a fully experienced team to build around.

Lets not kid ourselves, it wasnt cause of the players that we were so mediocre last season, it was cos of the Game plan, no faith in it changing this season too. In Fact no faith in it changing in this era.

It is believed that SA's strengths are its forwards and set pieces and kicking, but the Cheetahs are proving that we can play an expansive game and running rugby, They need to stop making excuses for mediocrecy and focus on winning, just like what the Sharks are doing now, they busy complaining about injuries yet have players to be able to beat teams out there.

 

[SomeOke]

Firstly - I doubt many people "overrate" the springboks, we are a consistent top three side, that's often within range of Ireland, England and Wales. NZ is generally way ahead. No-one is claiming that we're the best in the world, by any stretch of the imagination. Most South African's would probably say we underperform, but the same can be said of any nation and their rugby fans.

Secondly this old chestnut about us having to play expansive rugby is bull. We'll never be quite as good as Aus and NZ at that type of game because of the way our school system works. As early as 5 years ago (when I was in matric) offloads or "50 50" passes were discouraged, players are encouraged to run straight and even during leisure time, SA students can be found playing kopper stamp (contact rugby in the goal area) more often than touch which encourages a completely different style of rugby - and that's OK! We use the game plan that suits us, I challenge you to name an SA backline that can really compare with the running quality of NZ and even Aus. We can name, Ebersohn, Willie le Roux etc but none of them has proven effectiveness at an international level like their NZ counterparts.

That's what we've always excelled at, and you can be a great team, maybe even the best team with that approach (see 2009) your execution just has to be right which it hasn't quite been in recent times. NZ is probably the only team that's ever managed to combine forward dominance with expansive running and frankly considering their dedication as a nation too Union this isn't surprising, Rugby is still the third most popular sport in South Africa after all, despite the obsession some of us have.


tl:dr; If we play an expansive game we risk just being an inferior copy of Aus/NZ rather than playing to our strengths.

edit: As for the Cheetahs they've played a less expansive game this year than they did last year "tightened" up as it were and now they are suddenly winning, and not frequently enough for them to really have "proven" expansive rugby as a viable tactic in South Africa.

 

[kusta]

I challenge you to name an SA backline that can really compare with the running quality of NZ and even Aus. We can name, Ebersohn, Willie le Roux etc but none of them has proven effectiveness at an international level like their NZ counterparts.

Im not in my wildest imagination saying lets play expansive by running everything from our 22, im saying lets compromise, less kicking and more running. Last season what we saw was players first thought about kicking before looking up and seeing gaps or numbers out wide...Or our favourite - trying to run over a player instead of running at the 'branches.'

Well il give ur challenge a go:

10.Johann Goosen
11.Willie Le Roux
12.Robert Ebersohn
13.Jacque Fourie(if he made himself available)
14.JP Pietersen
15.Jaco Taute/Gio Aplon

To me thats an exciting backline if we gonna spread the ball, sure some of those players are untested at international level but there is no other way to know but to give them a shot!

 

[KAPman]

you can say they scrape victories, but frankly south africa's style is not about blowing teams off the park on the scoreboard. Their game is based around territory, physicality and set pieces. A very predicatable style, not always the most attractive, but sure is effective when executed properly

 

[TRF_heineken]

We are the 2nd ramked team in the world. In this year's Super Rugby tournament we showed what our strengths are. Our Mauls have been devastating. Our line-outs have been impressive, and some of our backs has shown some great skill. With regard to offloading and the 50-50 passes, we are growing in that area. Look at Jan Serfontein, Robert Ebersohn, some of the new forwards even, who does the offload with some success.

But this bullshit about us having to change the way we play should stop right now. With the new scrum laws, we will once again be strong in that department as well. Our traditional way of play will always be part of the game and what we will rely on.

I think we have a chance to win the Rugby Championship this year, but if we don't, then that will also be okay as we are rebuilding.

I just find it disturbing that a South African will write such nonsense which you did Kusta! Its clear you have no loyalty, and no respect for our sacred springboks. You have no faith in a team which you criticise, yet they haven't even been given the chance to prove you right or wrong this year. This is just pathetic honestly! This is equal to sigesige00, sifplay, cave dweller and shovenose and icemn threads.

 

[nickdnz]

I just find it disturbing that a South African will write such nonsense which you did Kusta! Its clear you have no loyalty, and no respect for our sacred springboks. You have no faith in a team which you criticise, yet they haven't even been given the chance to prove you right or wrong this year. This is just pathetic honestly! This is equal to sigesige00, sifplay, cave dweller and shovenose and icemn threads.

Hey take it easy man. admartian is constantly pessimistic about the performance of the NZ Super Rugby teams and predicts a poor season for the All Blacks. I don't assume because of this he is unpatriotic or call him pathetic - if anything I think he can be a tad reactionary, but I don't think that has anything to do with his love for his country or his national team - it's just his opinion.

And I personally agree. We seen the Cheetahs have gone from sh*t to fantastic because they have been able to negotiate an expansive gameplan with a traditionally hard working forward pack. Even the Bulls look to have improved in this area. I fully think the Springboks are capable of playing an expansive gameplay while not throwing out what makes traditionally very strong. Yes the rolling mall has been devistating for South Africa - I don't think their lineouts in terms of retention has been anything exceptional. The Springboks are never really going to dominate an All Black scrum - we're both very competitive in this area. There may be slight advantages but probably not enough to dictate games.

What I think kusta touched on is that the Springboks need to make 'heads up plays'. The Springboks and their fans seem very focused on maintaining their identity - despite many of their players being capable of playing at a top level outside of that identity. Looking at centres like Jan Serfontein and Robert Eberson, outside backs like Lwasi Mvovo, Willy le Roux, Gio Aplon and JP Pieterson (not to mention some of the newer guys like Rhule, Petersen) - there is no way I'd think of playing a conservative gameplan - especially when you look at the athleticism of some of the up and coming loose forwards. I tend to agree JdV is a bit overrated. He had a brilliant game against the Canes recently, but I've never though much in terms of his vision.

 

[TRF_heineken]

What I think kusta touched on is that the Springboks need to make 'heads up plays'. The Springboks and their fans seem very focused on maintaining their identity - despite many of their players being capable of playing at a top level outside of that identity. Looking at centres like Jan Serfontein and Robert Eberson, outside backs like Lwasi Mvovo, Willy le Roux, Gio Aplon and JP Pieterson (not to mention some of the newer guys like Rhule, Petersen) - there is no way I'd think of playing a conservative gameplan - especially when you look at the athleticism of some of the up and coming loose forwards. I tend to agree JdV is a bit overrated. He had a brilliant game against the Canes recently, but I've never though much in terms of his vision.

But we have always had some great wingers and centres. Guys like, Ray Mordt, Andre Snyman, Danie Gerber, Chester Williams, and recently Bryan Habana, Jaque Fourie and a couple of other names.

We have had a bit of a downward spiral in terms of quality in certain positions for a while now, yet we were still competitive. For Kusta to go and say such nonsense, with guys like Robert Ebersohn, Jan Serfontein, Raymond Rhule, JJ Engelbrecht, Paul Jordaan, Willie Le Roux, and some other guys who will still make their mark, that hasn't had the chance yet to shine in Springbok colours, is very premature.

Last year, we all knew what was going to happen with Heyneke in his first season at the helm... Hell looks like everyone forgot what happened when he first started at the Bulls?? They lost every match in the Super Rugby Season. they didn't even had 3 points on the log... then what happened?? He settled down, he got a great game plan, he got some exciting players, and he made them a dominant force.

Yet, Kusta, the negative sharks/alberts fanboy, goes on to rant about how overrated the Boks are. I think we are a bit underrated to be honest. Many doesn't give us a chance at winning this year's Rugby Championship, David Campese thinks we'll end third, with Australia winning everything this year. Some think we have an identity crisis, whereas I think, we are strong, we are building, we are growing. Coenie Oosthuizen, Bismarck Du Plessis, Eben Etzebeth, Pieter Steph Du Toit, Arno Botha, Lappies Labuschagne, Heinrich Brussouw, Duane Vermeulen, Pierre Spies, Cobus Reinach, Francois Hougaard, Johan Goosen, Pat Lambie, Raymond Rhule, Willie Le Roux, Lwazi Mvovo, Jan Serfontein, Robert Ebersohn, Jaco Taute, JP Pietersen and some others have been mentioned on many threads the last couple of weeks, everyone saying how good they are. that's almost a team right there. With the addition of some old guns and some experience.

 

[kusta]

But we have always had some great wingers and centres. Guys like, Ray Mordt, Andre Snyman, Danie Gerber, Chester Williams, and recently Bryan Habana, Jaque Fourie and a couple of other names.

We have had a bit of a downward spiral in terms of quality in certain positions for a while now, yet we were still competitive. For Kusta to go and say such nonsense, with guys like Robert Ebersohn, Jan Serfontein, Raymond Rhule, JJ Engelbrecht, Paul Jordaan, Willie Le Roux, and some other guys who will still make their mark, that hasn't had the chance yet to shine in Springbok colours, is very premature.

Last year, we all knew what was going to happen with Heyneke in his first season at the helm... Hell looks like everyone forgot what happened when he first started at the Bulls?? They lost every match in the Super Rugby Season. they didn't even had 3 points on the log... then what happened?? He settled down, he got a great game plan, he got some exciting players, and he made them a dominant force.

Yet, Kusta, the negative sharks/alberts fanboy, goes on to rant about how overrated the Boks are. I think we are a bit underrated to be honest. Many doesn't give us a chance at winning this year's Rugby Championship, David Campese thinks we'll end third, with Australia winning everything this year. Some think we have an identity crisis, whereas I think, we are strong, we are building, we are growing. Coenie Oosthuizen, Bismarck Du Plessis, Eben Etzebeth, Pieter Steph Du Toit, Arno Botha, Lappies Labuschagne, Heinrich Brussouw, Duane Vermeulen, Pierre Spies, Cobus Reinach, Francois Hougaard, Johan Goosen, Pat Lambie, Raymond Rhule, Willie Le Roux, Lwazi Mvovo, Jan Serfontein, Robert Ebersohn, Jaco Taute, JP Pietersen and some others have been mentioned on many threads the last couple of weeks, everyone saying how good they are. that's almost a team right there. With the addition of some old guns and some experience.

Its not that im unpatriotic by making this thread but really currently with our style of play(and especially if it doesnt change this season) we are never gonna be the 'feared' team that we think we are(which is why im saying the Springboks are overrated), we often hear how our forwards are feared and our set-pieces etc, but come match-day bleh, nothing happens, we get thumped by the All Blacks(When was the last time we even beat them?)

The whole of last season what we saw was lots of kicking, aimless too for that matter, trying to run over players - This is a Proffessional sport now, everyone can catch high balls and everyone can tackle. Maybe this gameplan wouldve worked for HM in 2007 with the Bulls but it wont now, the laws have changed and people can tackle and catch high balls, i remember this worked well in 2009 when we would bombard NZ with high kicks and they couldnt catch them and we'd have our wingers there to pounce on it....but fast track and try this in 2012 and NZ just wait for us to kick the ball on to them and they just run us ragged!!!

What im saying is we have so many talented backs(like the ones u mentioned) we never use them. How often do you see the ball reach the wingers when the Boks are playing? The Cheetahs have got it right this season, they not as expansive as they used to be but they smarter now, they see when a chance is on and when it isnt. And their defense has improved too. So we can play smart like how the cheetahs are, sorry but our current gameplan is too predictable - Smash it up with forwards, if nothing opens up kick the ball away._Simply put! We got immense talent and we just dont use it!

 

[TRF_heineken]

Its not that im unpatriotic by making this thread but really currently with our style of play(and especially if it doesnt change this season) we are never gonna be the 'feared' team that we think we are(which is why im saying the Springboks are overrated), we often hear how our forwards are feared and our set-pieces etc, but come match-day bleh, nothing happens, we get thumped by the All Blacks(When was the last time we even beat them?)

The whole of last season what we saw was lots of kicking, aimless too for that matter, trying to run over players - This is a Proffessional sport now, everyone can catch high balls and everyone can tackle. Maybe this gameplan wouldve worked for HM in 2007 with the Bulls but it wont now, the laws have changed and people can tackle and catch high balls, i remember this worked well in 2009 when we would bombard NZ with high kicks and they couldnt catch them and we'd have our wingers there to pounce on it....but fast track and try this in 2012 and NZ just wait for us to kick the ball on to them and they just run us ragged!!!

What im saying is we have so many talented backs(like the ones u mentioned) we never use them. How often do you see the ball reach the wingers when the Boks are playing? The Cheetahs have got it right this season, they not as expansive as they used to be but they smarter now, they see when a chance is on and when it isnt. And their defense has improved too. So we can play smart like how the cheetahs are, sorry but our current gameplan is too predictable - Smash it up with forwards, if nothing opens up kick the ball away._Simply put! We got immense talent and we just dont use it!

Now you're just being stubborn, once again, I plead with you, how can you judge the team, when they haven't played yet?? The players I named, most of them haven't played for the boks yet, nearly all of them got called to the first bok training squad in the beginning of this year. HM now has a grasp of international rugby. He has now outlined our faults and his own. he has admitted to his mistakes.

So how about you wait and see what happens???

 

[kusta]

Now you're just being stubborn, once again, I plead with you, how can you judge the team, when they haven't played yet?? The players I named, most of them haven't played for the boks yet, nearly all of them got called to the first bok training squad in the beginning of this year. HM now has a grasp of international rugby. He has now outlined our faults and his own. he has admitted to his mistakes.

So how about you wait and see what happens???

Ok il wait, but just remember this thread when the season is done end of the year....hope i wont have to say i told you so!

 

[Big Ewis]

I agree with the original poster. I've been very disappointed in SA the past year or so.
- They barely made any noise during the RWC, got away with a stressful 17-16 pool win against Wales and were gone before anybody could see what they were made of...
- in TRC, they were fine in parts, esp. at home but mediocre on the road, should've really lost that first game ever in the tournament to rookies Pumas but got a monumental break on that charge-down.
- weren't fabulous against a young, unestablished England team during June 2012. Even conceded that draw, at home...
- were very, VERY unimpressive this past November. Had that huge lucky break with that try in London, barely got over a decimated-by-injury Ireland, and again mediocre against a pretty weak Scotland team.

Without Habana they looked miserable in November.
I'm sorry all this is happening, I'm rather a fan than not of the Boks, but this is all just mere fact, don't anyone dare attack me I didn't engineer reality nor can I change it.