The Ma'a Nonu conundrum

[Shaggy]

Interesting articles about Ma'a regarding his recent on field indiscretion

http://www.rugbyweek.com/news/article.asp?id=39619&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

... and about his future within New Zealand Rugby

http://www.radiosport.co.nz/shows/drive/highlights/darcy-waldegrave-1jul2013

I think Three weeks is probably a fair punishment for the tackle, however, he doesn't seem that interested in playing Super Rugby anyway, so it's not much of a punishment is it?

... With regard to his future, it's a requirement that he plays Rugby in New Zealand, and the Super Rugby franchises have an expectation and a right that a player is going to try to do the best for their team ... in short, they should get some bang for their buck.

I get that he wants to play his best Rugby for the All Blacks, but if he can't or won't deliver for any of the Super franchises, I'm not sure what can be done for him ... I'm certainly not in favour of any change in policy by the NZRU to allow hi to play outside of New Zealand, and still play for the All Blacks

... your thoughts?

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

My thoughts very much depend on how Francis Saili develops this year Ma'a Nonu is too good an All Black to let go, especially when we are brimming with depth in the midfield.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Ma'a certainly does the job with a black jersey on so maybe send him to the Chiefs LOL. My post is of course tongue in cheek and I would let Aki get more game time. I'd say the only thing to do is sit down with the man and tell him to shape up or ship out because at the end of the day what kind of message is it to the guys who work their butts off in SR when Nonu gets picked ahead of them off of terrible SR seasons even if he does perform for the ABs?

 

[nickdnz]

I actually don't see the Highlanders wanting to let Ma'a Nonu go for next season. He's had a rough season in Super Rugby - but with Tamati Ellison and Hosea Gear leaving to Japan I don't see the Highlanders not trying to renegotiate a new deal - perhaps for less money.

I actually think the Crusaders or Chiefs would be a good fit for Nonu. Both Carter and Cruden like a hard runner outside them and their creativity would open space for him. People are getting very wary of Nonu, and in many ways rightly so - but he's always been a bit of a headcase holding records for most yellow cards in Super Rugby. It's not new he has discipline issues - but I think most franchises would be willing to risk it for him getting back on form.

 

[dasNdanger]

I really can't figure the guy out. He's like two different players. In Super Rugby he's one guy, but put on that black jersey and he becomes something totally different. Perhaps he just doesn't have respect for the franchise system (or even his fellow players), and feels he's taking a step down from the glory of the International game so he just doesn't try that hard. I may be wrong, but I just can't see how a guy who can play so well against the best in the international game seems to be such a pr&%$ in the local game.


das

 

[FlukeArtist]

We all have aspects of our jobs that we like more than others.
Obviously Nonu likes the ABs part more than the Super Rugby side, but at the end of the day he is getting paid for both.

IMO, regardless of how well he plays in the Black jersey, it's time he stopped being selected without showing any Super Rugby form.

Like Stormer 2010 said; what kid of message does this send to the players competing for his position?
Although he is a fine player, he is not a Dan Carter or Richie McCaw

 

[Kiwiwomble]

We all have aspects of our jobs that we like more than others.
Obviously Nonu likes the ABs part more than the Super Rugby side, but at the end of the day he is getting paid for both.

IMO, regardless of how well he plays in the Black jersey, it's time he stopped being selected without showing any Super Rugby form.

Like Stormer 2010 said; what kid of message does this send to the players competing for his position?
Although he is a fine player, he is not a Dan Carter or Richie McCaw

This!

I can understand the idea of these guys are leaving so lets keep some of the others...but not the case with nonu, he doesn't want to play for us and i've enjoyed watching guys like emery get their shot.

We've done the whole buying top players in thing...and it didn't work, time to build a proper team around a couple of key players which is pretty much what the chiefs have done, guys like B smith, A smith (with a kick in the bum), Tanaka, sopanga, slade and emery could be leathal if we can just fill the other spots with local players that compliment them.

bye bye nonu

 

[Sam Owen]

Guys, gotta remember that there's a big difference between international Rugby and Super. I don't need to go into any comparisons but I will say that maybe from Hansens perspective, Nonu is seen as one of the elite All Blacks (e.g. McCaw, Carter-they don't have to play good in Super Rugby or even play in Super Rugby and still get picked for the ABs) and Nonu knows this.

 

[William18]

We all have aspects of our jobs that we like more than others.
Obviously Nonu likes the ABs part more than the Super Rugby side, but at the end of the day he is getting paid for both.

IMO, regardless of how well he plays in the Black jersey, it's time he stopped being selected without showing any Super Rugby form.

Like Stormer 2010 said; what kid of message does this send to the players competing for his position?
Although he is a fine player, he is not a Dan Carter or Richie McCaw

It sends the message that consistent All Black performances over a number of years will be rewarded in faith from the All Blacks selectors. That has always been the policy. Just from looking at the June internationals, you can't fault the policy. I want the Al Blacks to have the best available. The idea that we should intentionally destrengthen our test team does not make any sense to me. There is no such thing as deserving. The jersey should go to the player with the best chance of playing well. Right now that is Ma'a Nonu. I can't think of anyone in the last ten years who has been greatin Super Rugby and not given an All Blacks chance. Marty Holah is probably the last unlucky player and Matt Todd will likely be the next. Basically, everyone else though who has performed has got their chance.

For me Nonu is the All Black's third most valuable player (not best!). The only two ahead of him are Read and McCaw. Neither Read's replacement (Vito) or McCaw's (Cane) are on the same planet as those guys. Similarly, Nonu is clearly better than all of his alternatives. Carter is nowhere near MVP because Cruden runs a tight ship (although I still believe Carter is superior)

Nonu has had insecurity in the past two seasons but he generally performed well for the Hurricanes. There is no reason he can't play well in 2014 for the Highlanders. He would certainly be better than nay other number 12 they have got.

Oh and Nick is 100% right. Nonu needs a first five inside him to take the ball to the line effectively or else he isn't very good. You should look at how Nonu ran off Cruden in the French tests. He hasn't had that the last two seasons and hence the poor form.

 

[dasNdanger]

Guys, gotta remember that there's a big difference between international Rugby and Super. I don't need to go into any comparisons but I will say that maybe from Hansens perspective, Nonu is seen as one of the elite All Blacks (e.g. McCaw, Carter-they don't have to play good in Super Rugby or even play in Super Rugby and still get picked for the ABs) and Nonu knows this.

Okay, let me ask this then...

Do you think that elite All Blacks tend to hold back a bit in Super to avoid injury and such so that they will be fit to play the international game?

I'm just wondering if once you know you're in (or the higher-ups know it), then is there a tendency for those elite players to rest on their laurels as a sort of self-preservation (could they even be encouraged to do so by the ABs powers that be?), while those lads hungry for their first cap do all the really hard work in the local competitions?


das

 

[UilamOsa]

Okay, let me ask this then...

Do you think that elite All Blacks tend to hold back a bit in Super to avoid injury and such so that they will be fit to play the international game?

I'm just wondering if once you know you're in (or the higher-ups know it), then is there a tendency for those elite players to rest on their laurels as a sort of self-preservation (could they even be encouraged to do so by the ABs powers that be?), while those lads hungry for their first cap do all the really hard work in the local competitions?


das

Not answering for Sam - but I'd think looking at Kieran Read (and even McCaw before), I don't think they tend to hold back at all. Even going back to guys like Hore & Mealamu. They're itching to play.
Hence the need for the sabbatical's for certain players. The mind is willing but the flesh is weak.

If we are talking about Nonu specifically, I'd have to say the reason why he seems so different from current Super15 form to test status - is the team and the environment around him. In the AB's, he's in his element, he's playing along side his mates he's played with for the last 5+ years. Everything is laid out for him, he just needs to get out there and do the business and bask in the afterglow. And more often than not - he does.

I think the Crusaders would be the perfect fit for him. He would be everything that they wanted out of Robbie Fruean but more. That would be devastating for everyone else.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

i think some people have lost perspective, some people are too focused on the AB's winning and have forgotten games should be enjoyable to watch.

I watch loads more super rugby and NPC than i do Internationsal...and to some extent have a stronger connection with the south than the AB's due to having played with some of these guys in my youth (went to school with Richie and played club with Andrew Hore, uni with guys like Tom donnelly et al) and so if i'm honest i would rather see guys playing well in these club comps than what in the end are friendly internationals

 

[Sam Owen]

Okay, let me ask this then...

Do you think that elite All Blacks tend to hold back a bit in Super to avoid injury and such so that they will be fit to play the international game?

I'm just wondering if once you know you're in (or the higher-ups know it), then is there a tendency for those elite players to rest on their laurels as a sort of self-preservation (could they even be encouraged to do so by the ABs powers that be?), while those lads hungry for their first cap do all the really hard work in the local competitions?


das

I had a fair bit in reply to your questions but this iPad logged me out and I lost it all lol.

No I don't think they hold back, surely they go in to have an enjoyable day in the office. I'm just speculating that maybe Nonu knows something from Hansen that we don't.

Before the June tests against France Ma'a was quiet to say the least. He made the ABs starting line-up with no-one really asking any questions (almost like it was expected), then he plays really good and everybody is amazed and straight away people are saying he's back. Ma'a never left.

He then goes back to the Highlanders and then people say he's not playing hard enough. Like many of the previous posts, it's the team environment that people should consider and like in my previous post, there's a big difference between international Rugby and Super. Hansen IMO sees it that way also otherwise why would he pick a quiet Nonu to start against the French?..Hansen knows what Nonu can do and in the end produced a masterstroke in fielding Nonu.

Guys like McCaw I think will only need to play one game to make the ABs. We know this, it happens, it even happens at grassroots level.

 

[Larksea]

never been a massive fan of Nonu for one main reason - one thing that really bothers me about him is often when he makes a tackle he then swans around and takes an age to get back into position, like he's done his work and gets off doing anything for a couple of minutes, takes time to give himself a pat on the back and when he does it I think it speaks volumes about the type of player he is without seeing that he has records regarding getting cards for stupid play.

People hate on SBW but you watch him defend in rugby. When he makes a tackle he gets back into the line and ready so fast it's hard to believe he was involved in the last play and at times will make 2-3 tackles in a row, fancy offloads aside that's why I think he is a player of rare class and that is the type of player he is, his work is never done he just keeps going.

on the flip side he nonu done some amazing stuff. that game a couple years ago where Dagg scored from a Nonu Break right on full time to win the game against the Boks in south Africa in front of like 80,000 Was John Smit's 100th I think. I think that's maybe the greatest moment in NZ rugby for a long time, for me it even trumps the world cup.

Yet for every game like that he has one where at full time his tackle count is like 2-4 with 2 missed tackles, that's just the kinda player he is.

At super rugby? Forget it, every team he is in is a joke, he's won something like 5-6 games of super rugby in 3 years and that is not by accident. He seems to be trying to hard or not trying at all. Like he's above it all and the line should just open up and let him through or the rules dont apply to him.

his ability is unquestionable, I think it really boils down to having amazing footwork for his size. It's pretty unique.

despite making a couple line breaks against the french I don't think we have seen him at his best for a very long time, consider that and looking to 2015 maybe it's time he had a tap on the shoulder - it's very very hard to see him being a factor in 2015. I think he gets an easy ride in the all blacks having the best 10 in the world inside (Dan Carter has made up for a lot of bad Nonu Defense, a hell of a lot) and one of the most accurate defenders in the world outside, one can only imagine what Saili mite do given the chance. he looks a pretty impressive runner certainly done a heck of a lot more than Nonu has in super rugby this year.

 

[Sam Owen]

never been a massive fan of Nonu for one main reason - one thing that really bothers me about him is often when he makes a tackle he then swans around and takes an age to get back into position, like he's done his work and gets off doing anything for a couple of minutes, takes time to give himself a pat on the back and when he does it I think it speaks volumes about the type of player he is without seeing that he has records regarding getting cards for stupid play.

People hate on SBW but you watch him defend in rugby. When he makes a tackle he gets back into the line and ready so fast it's hard to believe he was involved in the last play and at times will make 2-3 tackles in a row, fancy offloads aside that's why I think he is a player of rare class and that is the type of player he is, his work is never done he just keeps going.

on the flip side he nonu done some amazing stuff. that game a couple years ago where Dagg scored from a Nonu Break right on full time to win the game against the Boks in south Africa in front of like 80,000 Was John Smit's 100th I think. I think that's maybe the greatest moment in NZ rugby for a long time, for me it even trumps the world cup.

Yet for every game like that he has one where at full time his tackle count is like 2-4 with 2 missed tackles, that's just the kinda player he is.

At super rugby? Forget it, every team he is in is a joke, he's won something like 5-6 games of super rugby in 3 years and that is not by accident. He seems to be trying to hard or not trying at all. Like he's above it all and the line should just open up and let him through or the rules dont apply to him.

his ability is unquestionable, I think it really boils down to having amazing footwork for his size. It's pretty unique.

despite making a couple line breaks against the french I don't think we have seen him at his best for a very long time, consider that and looking to 2015 maybe it's time he had a tap on the shoulder - it's very very hard to see him being a factor in 2015. I think he gets an easy ride in the all blacks having the best 10 in the world inside (Dan Carter has made up for a lot of bad Nonu Defense, a hell of a lot) and one of the most accurate defenders in the world outside, one can only imagine what Saili mite do given the chance. he looks a pretty impressive runner certainly done a heck of a lot more than Nonu has in super rugby this year.

Some very good points there Larky. It's good people notice what SBW does to help out his team defensively. I'm a fan of Nonu with his tackle busts but his tackling is suspect at times and other times illegal. Good read.

 

[FlukeArtist]

Guys, gotta remember that there's a big difference between international Rugby and Super. I don't need to go into any comparisons but I will say that maybe from Hansens perspective, Nonu is seen as one of the elite All Blacks (e.g. McCaw, Carter-they don't have to play good in Super Rugby or even play in Super Rugby and still get picked for the ABs) and Nonu knows this.

Then pretty soon he is going to run out of Super Rugby sides.

Because who wants a guy that is so big headed that he is only begrudingly playing for your team to benefit his own agenda.

I know if I was a Super Rugby coach I wouldn't want him.

I think Nonu's record with Super Rugby speaks volumes about the guy. He is not a team player.