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The "South African Quota" catch-all thread
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<blockquote data-quote="Bruce_ma gooshvili" data-source="post: 981644" data-attributes="member: 74121"><p>I'll give it a second look incase my radar was off. The fact the institute was established in the 1920s during British colonial rule made me somewhat sceptical and that first couple of pages is very partisan for a sobre social commentary. The only instance of racism by a white person they chose to mention was to say that the sentence was too harsh, making an unevidenced assumption that the culprit had psychological issues! High profile crimes with a racial element (that I won't dredge up) are ignored and the picture painted is of white victimhood. But maybe I was hasty to have that put me off, and it improves later on.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've said before I am not unsympathetic to that. It's a completely valid perspective and a credit to the SARU despite my concerns that they haven't extended their reach enough beyond their usual bastions of rugby support (a problem that blights many unions). A better government could have taken different approaches to the topic and this MIGHT have resulted in more natural success and may have gone some way to removing the argument for Transformation targets. </p><p></p><p>Where I am coming from is with hindsight. Multiple former Boks said that this RWC triumph was completely different to the previous one, in part because of the more representative makeup of the side (and yes, the example of poor representation I gave was the 2015 semi, sorry). </p><p></p><p>Even if you dislike transformation, I think you could easily envisage a 2019 Springboks whose diversity, without transformation, would have just been one or two black dudes on the wing, and for that to continue for decades into the future. That is not athletic or sporting merit, genetics or some innate sporting preference of children from different communities. That is barriers to entry, 'rugby blazer's' cliques and social division. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, yes. I have read the arguments here. They'll like to play anything but rugby (unless its 7s of course) and don't like physical contact, regardless of which of the many diverse peoples of colour (both native and immigrant) across a huge swathe of territory they hail from. It is foolish of me to consider that a young South African, perhaps with a passing similarity to Itoje, Lawes or Nakarawa could ever be interested in rugby or flourish as a lock by receiving opportunities and specialist training on a highly technical sport at a young age. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick Out Tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p><p></p><p>Apologies for the sarcasm, I just find such arguments from otherwise coherent individuals very unusual. I'm not sure how to even respond, so I chalk it up to cultural differences. </p><p></p><p>I do acknowledge that there can be difficult physical propensities in different populations, even though that is an understandable prickly topic. But North Europeans were often very short even 200 years ago. You just have to look at doorways to buildings from the 18th and 19th centuries in Europe to see that people were dramatically shorter 200 years ago than people from the identical gene pool now. A massive part of the height issue is diet rather than genetics, but maybe this takes some generations to filter through? I don't know. But I can agree that there are also tall black males in South Africa. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I have never claimed a mandate or to represent anyone other than myself. I have never said something as ignorant as "what South Africans don't get".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm fairly certain there was a 50%+ target set for 2019 in the Transformation document that was linked to earlier in the thread. Perhaps there was some diplomatic massaging of the target, but it was definitely something way larger than 8 out of 23 or whatever we saw in 2019. To be honest, I wasnt paying much attention to the numbers out of the 23 this year, because it seemed nobody was so focused on it after Rassie took over, so it didnt seem to come up. Let's hope that the new coach gets a similar approach from fans. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There is no comparison between a century of exclusion of sections of society in different countries from involvement from aspects of society and the economy? Nothing to be learned from a comparison of different responses to that and how they were addressed, specifically through the use of targets? I think you are being a bit harsh there at my comparison. </p><p></p><p>Targets are introduced, it is painful and it gets people's backs up, then the old engrained barriers are gradually eroded until targets are no longer required, because people are selected, on merit, based on their potential to do the job, not in terms of who their dad knows or what school they went to.</p><p></p><p>But anyway, I appreciate the time taken for an extended response. It'd be a dull world if we all agreed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bruce_ma gooshvili, post: 981644, member: 74121"] I'll give it a second look incase my radar was off. The fact the institute was established in the 1920s during British colonial rule made me somewhat sceptical and that first couple of pages is very partisan for a sobre social commentary. The only instance of racism by a white person they chose to mention was to say that the sentence was too harsh, making an unevidenced assumption that the culprit had psychological issues! High profile crimes with a racial element (that I won't dredge up) are ignored and the picture painted is of white victimhood. But maybe I was hasty to have that put me off, and it improves later on. I've said before I am not unsympathetic to that. It's a completely valid perspective and a credit to the SARU despite my concerns that they haven't extended their reach enough beyond their usual bastions of rugby support (a problem that blights many unions). A better government could have taken different approaches to the topic and this MIGHT have resulted in more natural success and may have gone some way to removing the argument for Transformation targets. Where I am coming from is with hindsight. Multiple former Boks said that this RWC triumph was completely different to the previous one, in part because of the more representative makeup of the side (and yes, the example of poor representation I gave was the 2015 semi, sorry). Even if you dislike transformation, I think you could easily envisage a 2019 Springboks whose diversity, without transformation, would have just been one or two black dudes on the wing, and for that to continue for decades into the future. That is not athletic or sporting merit, genetics or some innate sporting preference of children from different communities. That is barriers to entry, 'rugby blazer's' cliques and social division. Yes, yes. I have read the arguments here. They'll like to play anything but rugby (unless its 7s of course) and don't like physical contact, regardless of which of the many diverse peoples of colour (both native and immigrant) across a huge swathe of territory they hail from. It is foolish of me to consider that a young South African, perhaps with a passing similarity to Itoje, Lawes or Nakarawa could ever be interested in rugby or flourish as a lock by receiving opportunities and specialist training on a highly technical sport at a young age. :p Apologies for the sarcasm, I just find such arguments from otherwise coherent individuals very unusual. I'm not sure how to even respond, so I chalk it up to cultural differences. I do acknowledge that there can be difficult physical propensities in different populations, even though that is an understandable prickly topic. But North Europeans were often very short even 200 years ago. You just have to look at doorways to buildings from the 18th and 19th centuries in Europe to see that people were dramatically shorter 200 years ago than people from the identical gene pool now. A massive part of the height issue is diet rather than genetics, but maybe this takes some generations to filter through? I don't know. But I can agree that there are also tall black males in South Africa. I have never claimed a mandate or to represent anyone other than myself. I have never said something as ignorant as "what South Africans don't get". I'm fairly certain there was a 50%+ target set for 2019 in the Transformation document that was linked to earlier in the thread. Perhaps there was some diplomatic massaging of the target, but it was definitely something way larger than 8 out of 23 or whatever we saw in 2019. To be honest, I wasnt paying much attention to the numbers out of the 23 this year, because it seemed nobody was so focused on it after Rassie took over, so it didnt seem to come up. Let's hope that the new coach gets a similar approach from fans. There is no comparison between a century of exclusion of sections of society in different countries from involvement from aspects of society and the economy? Nothing to be learned from a comparison of different responses to that and how they were addressed, specifically through the use of targets? I think you are being a bit harsh there at my comparison. Targets are introduced, it is painful and it gets people's backs up, then the old engrained barriers are gradually eroded until targets are no longer required, because people are selected, on merit, based on their potential to do the job, not in terms of who their dad knows or what school they went to. But anyway, I appreciate the time taken for an extended response. It'd be a dull world if we all agreed. [/QUOTE]
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