The "South African Quota" catch-all thread

Discussion in 'General Rugby Union' started by Bruce_ma_goose, Sep 20, 2016.

  1. Bruce_ma_goose

    Bruce_ma_goose Senior Member

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    I thought I’d create a thread for South African quotas because whenever the “decline” of SA rugby comes up, the issue of quotas is raised, even by those not from South Africa and in all manner of threads that aren’t even really about South African rugby. Such is the passion the topic stirs.

    This issue appears to completely dominate other arguments that might explain a relative poor patch for SA. Yes, they progressed far in the last RWC, but few would argue they were a great side in that tournament, with what was a very white dominated team.

    So I’d get the ball rolling with the following and provide factual information and quotes from a perspective that doesn't seem to get much of an airing in these parts.


    Quotas in South African Rugby – fact or fiction?

    There is massive speculation on the internet about it. Is it 7 players out of the 23 must be non-white? Is it 50% of the team by 2019 must be non-white? How many of the non-white must be black etc? Is it horrible and racist? Is it wonderful and spreading social cohesion? In doing further research on this topic something striking came to mind. Quotas may not actually exist in South African rugby. In fact, at international level at least they don’t.

    There is a world of difference between a target and a quota. Quotas must be met whereas targets might not be met (or might be exceeded). You might have a target to reduce the number of casualties in car crashes, or reduce waiting times for operations at hospitals or to have a rugby side that is not so unrepresentative of the ethnic makeup of the country.


    When is a quota not a quota? When it's a target


    “Allister has been asked to have 50% black players in his squad by 2019, a rule that already applies to national junior teams. It’s a target and you won’t get rapped over the fingers if you don’t meet it; there are going to be exceptions, but the government and SARU want to see a genuine willingness to give non-white players the opportunity to play.”

    http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/south-africa-countries/south-africa-needs-allister-coetzee-58418


    ANC says quotas are "counter-productive"


    What we have in South Africa is targets, an aspiration to move towards greater representation of non-white players in South Africa and to have rugby engage more widely across different communities. But don’t take my word for it. Take the word of the South African Sports Minister, just three months ago in June 2016.

    “We must acknowledge that quotas don’t help, they’re counter-productive,’ he added. ‘If you select someone as a quota player, it’s an insult. How can you participate in a national team if you’re not there on merit? But we’ve got to go down to get this talent that we have in abundance, and bring it to the fore. Merit is not dissociated with transformation. I don’t want quotas, I don’t want the targets to be met in that way just to make the minister happy. It’s about an integrated society and going through a process to get the national teams to where they should be.”

    http://www.planetrugby.com/news/quotas-not-the-answer-sa-sports-minister/


    Well, he is ANC, he would say that wouldn’t he? What about the CEO of SARU in February 2015.


    SARU say, it is "not a quota system"


    “SARU CEO Jurie Roux stressed at a news conference in Cape Town that the "Strategic Transformation Plan" was not a quota system, but said he was confident the targets would be reached.

    "It's not just about numbers on the field", he said, pointing to plans for expanding black participation at all levels of the game. "We know that we are only judged on representation in the Springbok team," a reference to government pressure for racial transformation.

    "We understand that, and we also understand that it is also unfair to put that pressure on the Springbok coach without offering him any assistance - his teams can only reflect what is going on at the elite end of the domestic game."”


    http://en.espn.co.uk/southafrica/rugby/story/257457.html


    Springbok sides clearly not adhering to any kind of quota

    Still not convinced you? How about looking at the last SA rugby test side vs NZ last week.

    South Africa: 15 Johan Goosen, 14 Bryan Habana, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Juan de Jongh, 11 Francois Hougaard, 10 Elton Jantjies, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Warren Whiteley, 7 Oupa Mohoje, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Vincent Koch, 2 Adriaan Strauss (captain), 1 Tendai Mtawarira

    Substitutes: 16 Malcolm Marx, 17 Steven Kitshoff, 18 Lourens Adriaanse, 19 Franco Mostert, 20 Willem Alberts, 21 Jaco Kriel, 22 Morne Steyn, 23 Damian de Allende

    There certainly isn’t 50% non-white there. I count six? Regardless, as soon as the number falls below 7 out of the 23, then we know that quotas are not in place with the South African international side. It couldn't be plainer. There are no sanctions against AC just as there were no sanctions against the Springboks at the RWC when the side was overwhelmingly white. It is targets. It is players selected on ability combined with an effort to expand the take-up of the game within South Africa. It is done with honourable intentions.


    Conclusion

    So we can all relax, acknowledge that rugby in South Africa faces all manner of issues in terms of the quality of their players and coaching (both white and non-white), tune into the Rugby Championship and resume loving or hating the Springboks on purely sporting grounds. Hallelujah!


    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Update: 27/09/2016

    Quotas in Super Rugby?

    I focus on the international side because it is the one that is easiest to observe. So I took my search elsewhere to see if I could find solid evidence of specific quotas (rather than targets). I have read comments that the Lions have very limited numbers of "non-white" players too, indicating perhaps that quotas are also not in place in Super Rugby and that player selection there is based on merit. Summed up neatly by this headline:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion...e-messy-period

    "That's simply because, under the push for transformation, they do not have enough players of colour; just three in the starting side and one on the bench (13 per cent of the 23 man squad) that rolled the Highlanders last week."
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
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  3. Cruz_del_Sur

    Cruz_del_Sur Senior Member

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    Let me see if i understand the main question correctly: are quotas (or quota by proxy, or whatever you want to call it) the reason RSA is performing the way they are?
    In order to believe that, you must also believe there are non-blacks sitting on the bench that could have made a difference and are being underused.
    I do not see much evidence to support that claim.
     
  4. Sker

    Sker Senior Member

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    Oh wow.

    Sure quotas aren't the only thing to blame for crappy performances by the Boks, a lot of the white players are playing utter ****e. Pretty much all of us have said so as well.

    But to pretend quotas doesn't exist and it doesn't get enforced..

    you know what nah, I'm out.
     
  5. Steve-o

    Steve-o Senior Member

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  6. Ospervat

    Ospervat Senior Member

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    Here's the issue:- Schools rugby

    It is not the exclusive privilege of private schools - it is played across state schools however the quality of rugby played by these state schools has dropped dramatically over the last 20 years.

    Point in case - I attended a state school with a proud history of rugby in the eastern cape. We were always up there with the best - getting players into craven week and SA schools every year.

    Today the racial makeup of that school is 80% students of colour and their rugby is absolutely nowhere - we haven't had a single player selected for craven week in 8 years - those days are over - however soccer is flying - This is quite typical of many schools in the area.

    It is the private schools in the new South Africa that have tried to preserve the quality of rugby at school level otherwise this too would have perished but this is a very small pool and accessible to only a few of the most wealthy both black and white.

    There is a right way (education and funding) and a wrong way (enforced bias) to implement social mobility across all spectrums of life. The political power in SA has elected to place racially based selection policies on the national side (quotas, targets call it what you like) but in typical fashion had no plan to provide the funding for education at grass roots level in state schools to ensure continuity of talent in future generations.

    It's taken exactly one generation to seriously erode the talent base in SA rugby and it is finally paying the price. Be mindful - this recent epiphany is only the start - you can expect to see the erosion accelerate before performance levels out to one of abject humiliation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
  7. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    Hmmm...

    I don't know why I should bother to respond to this as the OP is just barely cutting the surface. As we all know by now, this system is rotten from the top heading down to the bottom, and if anyone fails to see that, they are either an ANC supporter with racist views, or an uneducated bigot.

    Now let's pull this out to illustrate.

    The Bok squad that toured Australasia:

    Forwards: Lourens Adriaanse, Lood de Jager, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Eben Etzebeth, Steven Kitshoff, Vincent Koch, Jaco Kriel, Francois Louw, Malcolm Marx, Bongi Mbonambi, Oupa Mohoje, Franco Mostert, Tendai Mtawarira, Trevor Nyakane, Adriaan Strauss (captain), Warren Whiteley

    Backs: Damian de Allende, Juan de Jongh, Faf de Klerk, Johan Goosen, Bryan Habana, Francois Hougaard, Elton Jantjies, Jesse Kriel, Lionel Mapoe, Lwazi Mvovo, Rudy Paige, Morne Steyn

    So out of the 31 players we have, Oupa Mohoje, Bongi Mbonambi, Tendai Mtawarira, Trevor Nyakane, Damian De Allende, Juan De Jongh, Bryan Habana, Elton Jantjies, Lionel Mapoe, Lwazi Mvovo and Rudy Paige.

    that is 11 out of 31! That is 35% of the team. Now if we look at those players individually:

    1. Mohoje is a clear cut quota player, and keeping out many of our best flankers out of the squad. We had to even go the route of playing Pieter-Steph Du Toit at flanker, after we all saw what a balls-up that was at the World Cup last year. Flanker is the one position we have an abundance of top quality players.

    2. Beast Mtawarira, some might say he doesn't qualify as a quota because he comes from Zimbabwe, but I'm inclined to think we have long passed that notion about him. Props like Kitshoff, and so many others who dominated overseas based teams in the Super Rugby, are overlooked, While Beast, who is just like Strauss, past his prime and just a pedestrian at the moment.

    3. Trevor Nyakane, Definitely a quota selection. He was injured at the end of Super Rugby, then when he recovered he played a measly 12 minutes for the Blue Bulls before being called up for the Springboks. He is terribly out of form, so much so that he was released to play for the Blue Bulls this Friday in the Currie Cup, but the Bulls coach omitted him from the team as he's not fit enough (Something he has been struggling with over the last 2 years).

    4. Bongi Mbonambi, He has been the seat warmer. It's clear that AC doesn't really want to play him, and that he's keeping out Marx, who everyone is raving about as the next Bismarck Du Plessis. Hell, he even kept out Bismarck from being called up before his injury.

    5. Damian De Allende and Juan De Jongh - Now perhaps I'm overcritical here, but I think most of us will agree that the 2 best centres in SA rugby that is on form, is playing Currie Cup at the moment in Rohan Janse van Rensburg and Francois Venter. Not only have they kept their amazing form going from Super Rugby into Currie Cup, they both recovered from injuries, and still play amazing rugby. They are hungry, in form, young! De Allende is neither in form nor hungry, and his petty remarks on twitter shows me he has a poor attitude too. De Jongh has been out of the XV's game for a while, and perhaps it was unfair of AC drafting him in so early, he had no chance to transition back into XV's after the Rio Olympics.

    6. Bryan Habana & Lwazi Mvovo, again out of form, and IMO a placeholder for better players. Ruan Combrink, Courtnall Skosan, Seabelo Senatla, Sergeal Peterson & Leolin Zas are all in better form, and more hungry. Here though I don't think they are so much a quota selection.

    7. Elton Jantjies, I think the past 5 matches speak for themselves.

    8. Rudy Paige, He was the quota selection at the World Cup and has been one ever since. He toured, but wasn't even in the matchday 23 in either the Aus and NZ matches. He was also released back to the Blue Bulls for this weekend, and he was also omitted for Friday's game. Hougaard is clearly AC's better choice behind Faf (or maybe even first choice now). When Reinach is back to his old self, he's a shoe-in to replace Paige.

    Now this is just at Springbok level. If we move down to Super Rugby, Currie Cup, U/20 Springboks, Craven Week and so on, This list will just intensify by at least threefold on how players of colour are not necessarily selected because of talent but purely because of skin colour.
     
  8. TheOvalBall

    TheOvalBall Senior Member

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    Let's not kid ourselves.

    The quotas started all this rubbish.

    And it is still going on. It does not matter if players picked on colour performs. There's a deep psychological problem in SA Rugby which won't go away until the government takes it's nose out of rugby. It does not matter if there are white players who play rubbish. The bigger problem still exists.

    Performing players suffer, mediocrity will keep ruling and performances of the team will suffer. The Government are tyrants and do what they want. They are as Democratic as Stalin was a saint.

    All down to quotas.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
  9. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    Yup, that is the gist of it. And it's a wider spectrum in Sport as it's now even in Management, and Coaching implemented, which is basically a form of BEE policies. Mzwandile Stick is the prime example here, he was appointed as the backline coach of the Springboks this year, yet AC didn't select him like all the other Springbok coaches selected their group in the past. He was placed there by the political forces. He has no credentials to show why he earned that position. He was a 7's player, but never a good XV's player. He coached the Kings' backline in this year's Super Rugby, and just look how well that went.

    Our historic strive for excellence has been thrown out the window and replaced by mediocrity and forced racial implementations.
     
  10. Steve-o

    Steve-o Senior Member

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    Couldn't agree more. Quotas, targets or whatever way the government wants to call it is damaging SA rugby on multiple fronts and on multiple levels. I feel like a broken record but I can't accept this way. I just hope the rest of the world pulls their finger and finally sees it for what it is.
     
  11. welshglory

    welshglory Senior Member

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    It's amazing how many black players England and France have coming through their systems and can select, even with the football popularity, compared to South Africa (relatively). I've given up with South Africa, a broken country in every sense. SARU has had more than 20 years to make some effort, i can't blame the government for stepping in. It's a complicated issue.
     
  12. TRF_Peat

    TRF_Peat Super Moderator

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    Never believe anything in politics until its been officially denied.
     
  13. TheOvalBall

    TheOvalBall Senior Member

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    The government is the problem. No matter what jurisdiction World Rugby has over SARU, ultimately the boss of SA Rugby listens to the government.
     
  14. welshglory

    welshglory Senior Member

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    Yeah like leaving the old white Afrikanner's in SARU to their own devices would really see more black players coming through the system.

    Bigger problem in my opinion is societal and at grassroots level.
     
  15. TRF_heineken

    TRF_heineken RIP #J9

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    And here is the problem that the outside world seems to look at.

    SARU didn't have 20 years to make some effort, in fact in the first 12 years of our Democracy, when Nelson Mandela and Thabo Mbeki were president, there was an out and out discontent from our leaders in that the Quota system should not be used. And in that time SARU didn't implement quotas. SARU did however start with development structures to give all in SA a better chance in introducing rugby to rural areas and getting more people to play rugby from all walks of life.

    But when Mbeki had to step down, and was replaced by Kgalema Mothlante and then by Jacob Zuma, it all changed. The focus became more on race and less about merit. And when Fikile Mbalula was appointed as Sports Minister, the wheels started to turn. Remember that Mbalula was the ANC Youth League president, and was succeeded by Julius Malema, and they are both cut from the same cloth. They have hatred in them for the white community in SA. The ANCYL has always had that, and their spewing ignorant rants about the White Man has now been implemented at the highest levels of government.
     
  16. Cruz_del_Sur

    Cruz_del_Sur Senior Member

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    @TRF_heineken thanks for giving me a straight answer.

    Another question if you don't mind:

    Out of complete ignorance, why would de Allende qualify as a quota player? I am not really familiar with his background but he doesn't look black. Again, out of ignorance, not trying to stir things up or anything like that.

    And one comment. I'll use Jantjies as an example but i could use others: sure, he underperformed but based on
    a) His performance in SR (he wasn't the only one who underperformed in the final so lets not pin that on him)
    b) Patrick Lambie being injured
    c) Pollard being injured
    d) Steyn not being the shadow of what he used to be

    I find it quite reasonable for him to have been selected for the starting XV in the games so far. Sure, it didn't work, but it's quite easy to make that judgement call with tomorrow's newspaper.
    If you tell me they keep on using him after such performances, then yes, you are right.

    This appears to be a sensitive subject for some so let me be clear: i am not calling anyone a racist and i personally believe that quotas are not the answer, but i am not convinced that quotas are neither sole nor the main reason for RSA's performance.

     
  17. TheOvalBall

    TheOvalBall Senior Member

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    I'm very surprised De Allende is considered a black player, or coloured per his ethnicity. To me he looks like a white person with a nice tan.
     
  18. saulan

    saulan Senior Member

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    He isn't, his family has stated he is white.
     
  19. TheOvalBall

    TheOvalBall Senior Member

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    Ok, thanks.
     
  20. Ali AK9

    Ali AK9 Member

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    It's quotas that have been the start of all of this, Allister and Stick were appointed because of their colour of skin. How can you overlook names like these - John Plumtree, John Mitchell, Eddie Jones, Brenden Venter, Rassie Erasmus, Jake White - for a guy who had barely accomplished something better than mediocrity at Super Rugby level. No one wants to touch SA Rugby because of all the **** they are gonna get from our government when they select on form. Forget our players, even our coaches are quotas and that's the problem. Give the Boks the All Black coaching staff, Eddie Jones or even this SA contingent:Rassie Erasmus - Forwards, Brenden Venter - Backline, JP Ferreria - Defense, Richie Gray - Breakdown, Swys de Bruin - Skills, Jake White - Technical Advisor, Johan Ackermann - Head Coach, we would be near-unstoppable. ur 3 best coaches at the Lions were overlooked. That group just shows the coaching brains we have, but none of them want to be involved of the quotas. I would definitely mix some New Zealanders there as well, but it shows we do have enough. It would be so much better if our entire government was ridden of. We should really start a petition to the IRB to overule the quota system in SA, and if our government refuses, let's ban the Boks from competing internationally. Quotas are reverse racism.
     
  21. themole25

    themole25 Senior Member

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    so how good do you think the springboks would be without government interference?
    cause right now the Springboks are in the middle of their winningest decade against the original rugby championship and 5 nations teams since the 1960s and they just took third in the world cup
     
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