Top14 budgets for 2011-2012 season

Discussion in 'Top 14 & Rugby Pro D2' started by DonBilly, Aug 15, 2011.

  1. DonBilly

    DonBilly Academy Player

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    Most of the clubs follow increasing, Toulouse are impressive.

    1. Toulouse 33,1M€ (+3,57M€ compared to previous season)
    2. Clermont 24,1M€ (+3,15M€)
    3. Racing-Métro 22,4 (+3,46M€)
    4. Stade Français 21,3M€ (+2,02M€)
    5. Toulon 19,7M€ (+0,65M€)
    6. Bayonne 17,2M€ (+1,45M€)
    7. Montpellier 17,2M€ (+2,19M€)
    8. Biarritz 16,6M€ (+1,21M€)
    9. Perpignan 15,3M€ (+1,22M€)
    10. Castres 15,1M€ (+1,16M€)
    11. Lyon 14,8M€ (Promoted)
    12. Brive 13,7M€ (-0,35M€)
    13. Agen 11,9M€ (+ 2,09M€)
    14. Bordeaux-Bègles 8M€ (Promoted)
     
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  3. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Toulouse's budget could fund 8 entire Aviva teams, and still have enough left over for a bag of chips on the way home...
     
  4. Logorrhea

    Logorrhea Bench Player

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    There is a difference between operating budget and the salary budget.

    Still, this is a terrifying amount of money.
     
  5. DonBilly

    DonBilly Academy Player

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    Indeed, salary budget is capped to 8.5 M€ anyway.
     
  6. M Two One

    M Two One Tra la la la

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    The whole idea that big cities will take over Top 14 is ridiculous. Southern and especially southwestern towns are still the heart of the sport in France and some of these towns are developing very well too. This helps growth and interest continue for their rugby clubs.

    Bayonne, Biarritz and Castres have smaller populations than Brive-la-Gaillarde, but they're doing well financially. Brive have simply been making poor financial decisions for years now and things are catching up to them. They have little money left to spend on players and due to their hefty player contracts if they were to drop they would probably go bankrupt causing further collapse into the amateur divisions.

    At first I was honestly surprised this did not happen to Bourgoin-Jallieu, but they managed to keep things together in hope that they can bounce back in a few years. They understood their fate years before the inevitable.
     
  7. Melhor Time

    Melhor Time Bench Player

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    Stade Français to do better this season! - Montpellier to repeat their season. Toulon to also impress.

    Agen, Brive and Bordeaux to be the ones in danger of relegation.

    Its not ridiculous at all - it is real and is highly visible. At the time of France being awarded hosting rights to Rugby World Cup 2007 it was confirmed that the same 10 venues from Soccer´s WC in 1998 would be used. i.e. St. Denis, Paris, Marseilles, Lyon, Lens, Montpellier, Toulouse, Bordeaux, Nantes and St. Ettiene. Of these stadiums only two had teams in the Top 14 and only Toulouse regularly had matches at the stadium.

    But since that time everything has changed. Montpellier won the Pro d2 in 2003. Racing Metro (Paris) in 2009 and Lyon in 2011. Bordeaux were also promoted for 2011-2012. So, France has gone from two of the city venues to six (Toulouse and Stade Français being the only ones previously) plus having Toulon use Marseilles several times per season.

    Biarritz and Bayonne both play games at San Sebasiten, Spain and pack the stadium (32,000). Agen have used Bordeaux in the past but now Bordeaux have a team and so won´t. They´ll feel the loss for sure. Castres and Brive are South-Western sides with no big stadiums and will, in my opinion, be in the Pro d2 in a matter of years.

    Look at the teams being relegated every year from the Top 14.... Look at Lyon´s buudget. First year in the Top 14 yet its very close to that of Perpignan and Castres, two Heineken Cup teams last season. Its also better than Brive and Agen - two southwest powerhouses. Teams relegated since 1998 are overwhelminging from the southwest and are from small towns. Look at the Pro d2 for 2011-2012 to see former Top 14 teams like Pau, Auch, Dax, Mont de Marsan, Albi and Narbonne. Or Tarbes who were French Champions in 1988 and Beziers who were in 1984 and are second to Toulouse in overall titles. The teams being promoted are, increasingly, from bigger cities. Since 2007 we´ve had Racing Metro, Lyon, Toulon, La Rochelle and Bordeaux. Not your traditional French southwest, small town sides.

    In 10 years its going to change even more. Big cities are coming to the party. See the thread about Strasbourg for instance. The southwest is the heart but the teams can´t compete financially and are vanishing from the radar.

    Bourgoin will be overpowered and stay in the Pro d2, in my opinion. The market is against them. Lyon is in the Top 14 now and Grenoble will be shortly. They alongside La Rochlle should win promotion.
     
  8. M Two One

    M Two One Tra la la la

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    First, go ahead and re-read my previous post, now I'll repeat a bit as I go along here.

    Southern and especially southwestern France is rugby mad and indeed is the heart of the sport. I lived there for some time between Biarritz, Pau and Tarbes since my wife was originally from there, so I've seen it for myself. The reality is that clubs are always up and down in Top 14 and Pro D2, something that couldn't be more obvious. What I find interesting is that you point out that southwestern clubs are relegated the most and vanishing, but that makes me understand that you don't follow French rugby much outside of the top flight. Considering that a large number of clubs are from the southwest compared to anywhere else (77 out of 160 from just Pro D2 to Fédérale 2 last season to be exact) of course there is a higher chance of one being relegated.

    Let's touch briefly on world cup stadiums since you've brought it up - they're built for soccer teams. Montpellier were already in Top 14 when the world cup took place. Racing Métro had dangled around the Pro D2 for some time narrowly missing out on promotion several times for years even with excellent financial strength. This was also the case for Toulon. Union Bordeaux is also no stranger to the top flight as they've been yo-yo'ing for decades and will likely continue to do so. All three clubs have a history of success in top flight French rugby, so this isn't new. Saint-Etienne have come and gone, Nantes have a club struggling in Fédérale 2 that is partially financed by universities and Lens don't even have a team in top tier amateur rugby.

    One bright side could be Marseille. Stade Phocéen is a Vitrolles based club that represents the city of Marseilles and are actually coming up through the lower leagues at a rapid rate. I've been covering the club for some time as you can see in a few threads. Last season they won Fédérale 2 going undefeated to gain promotion. That's quite an incredible feat for any club at that level in France. It will take some time before they reach Top 14, but baring any financial strain as three times before in the past few years, then there is a strong possibility. Here's hoping for the best.

    Lyon's budget comes from years of good investment and solid ownership. This isn't unique to them. Other clubs from Pro D2 have also increased their budget this way. Pau for instance has a lot to spend too, but won't until they reach Top 14. This is a good financial idea for a Pro D2 club considering that they believe in developing younger players and filling the rest of the holes when needed. They play in a stadium that holds 13,000 and have proposed to increase in the future. Carcassonne has risen from the depths and have increased their budget as well. Returning to professional rugby from the fifth amateur division within a few years is not to be overlooked. They didn't just return, they reached mid-table security right off the bat. The club currently play in a stadium that holds nearly 11,000 and have plans to increase their current stadium capacity as well.

    You do realize that Mont-de-Marsan has a population of under 30,000 people and yet their stadium has a capacity of 22,000. That's more than any other standard stadium in French rugby. Last season they narrowly made it back up to Top 14. One of the country' most successful clubs, Béziers (Stade Français are actually second in overall titles to Toulouse), is also on track back to the Top 14 after being promoted from Fédérale 1 following some financial hardship a few years ago. Since then the club updated their look and found new owners with financial strength. They currently have the finances to purchase bigger names, as many French clubs do, but probably won't dip into that much this season.

    You've also pointed out that a club like Tarbes hasn't won since 1988, they actually lost in the final that year. The last time Tarbes won was in 1973, so what? When was it that Racing Métro last won? 1990. What about Bordeaux? 1991. And Toulon? 1992. Before 2002, when was the last time Biarritz had won? 1939. Anyway, Tarbes has a 17,000 + capacity stadium, financial support, produces plenty of talent and due to the regional sporting program have the right to use Toulouse's Municpal stadium if needed. This also applies to Albi, Auch, etc. Tarbes has also dramatically increased population over the past ten years from around 48,000 to 110,000 as of 2011. It has always been a major sporting spot as it hosts one of the world's most famous junior tennis championships and their five star Le Rex Hôtel is always the place to rest for cyclists during le Tour in the Pryénées. That's just the tip of the iceberg, but you get my drift. Do your research first before you write that none of the smaller southwestern clubs can compete financially and are "vanishing from the radar" because you have no idea what you're writing about. This is why I touched on some, not all, smaller towns developing well.

    Big cities have always been a part of the "party," but they also had their ups and downs moving from division to division as other clubs from all parts of the country have for years. I agree that Grenoble moving up will be only a matter of time, but what they do once they're there is an entirely different subject. They could have stability or fall right back down as La Rochelle have been doing for so long. The same applies to Lyon. Due to how competitive the league has become over the past two or three years, there are several clubs that will risk relegation this upcoming season.

    Rugby has indeed changed a lot in France, but change is inevitable. We've been seeing that long before the sport turned professional as well and we'll continue to see it happen as long as the sport is being played competitively. Smaller towns with financial strength also don't just come from the southwest. Sure, we won't see a former giant like Lourdes back competing for the Brennus anytime soon, but that's because they're content with where they are. They don't want to spend money in the big leagues. Other clubs are slowly making strides to find their way back, so keep an eye out.
     
  9. Logorrhea

    Logorrhea Bench Player

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    Thats the player salaries yeah?

    Doesnt include the Players wife salary of €1.5 million for working in the sweet shop does it?
     
  10. Melhor Time

    Melhor Time Bench Player

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    M Two One

    Great post but it appears I was not so clear. When talking about South Western teams disappearing off the radar I am meaning gone from the Top 14 and, to a lesser extent, from the leading Pro d2 teams. The likes of Pau, Tarbes, etc are not going to cease to exist. my point is that that traditionally France was dominated by the south west and, sure it continues to be the hot bed, but nowadays the Top 14 has Lyon, Toulon, Montpellier, Racing Metro, Clermont, Stade Français and arguably Perpignan from outside of the south-west. The first four have arrived since after RWC 1999 even if it was not for the first time. Toulon, today, for instance are a different story altogether to the 2006 team.

    The move to having more big city teams is not new, but in the Top 14 it is a marked change. I wonder what will happen to the Pro d2 over the next decade. You mentioned Marseilles. Another is Strasbourg while we agree Grenoble are destined for the Top 14.
     
  11. M Two One

    M Two One Tra la la la

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    You were clear and that was what I responded to, you just don't seem to understand.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2011
  12. Canadian_Rugger

    Canadian_Rugger Academy Player

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    Melhor I agree: this is nothing new to sports though... rugby is a fairly new sport professionally and franchises are still quite young... as more money is injected into the game smaller markets will begin to feel the squeeze. Just look at North American sports such as Ice Hockey. Or even better look at football in england, where smaller market teams can not compete with the big boys of the EPL.

    Professional sports are driven by corporate sponsorships and money, smaller markets do not have the sorts of corporate support that will provides these teams with the money they need. As more money gets pumped into the sport and it grows globally these markets will no longer be able to compete. Its an economic reality.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2011
  13. M Two One

    M Two One Tra la la la

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    No intention to be harsh here; do you know about Leclerc's (big Wal-Mart type corporation) sponsorship spread? Do you have any idea how huge Pau's sponsorship deal is with one of the ten biggest corporations in the world? Do you even know the sponsorships for French clubs at all, no, otherwise you wouldn't even write any of that. I agree and have before that some smaller markets will not be able to compete, this has already happened, but others will still thrive and a few already are.

    Change indeed happens, but this isn't American sports where if you don't have an arena with enough box seats they'll take away your team and put it somewhere else. Some towns in France are growing rapidly and receiving more and more attention - five star hotels, luxury casinos, etc. I've seen it for myself. After coming back to the States for a few years I returned to see Pau was turned upside down. Pau seems more like a city than a town now. It was an incredible difference in such a short time span.

    This is all due to many factors aside from major increase in population. For one, major corporations are located in these towns and are passionate about local ideals - such as their sports clubs. There is also the environment. These are the difference makers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2011
  14. Melhor Time

    Melhor Time Bench Player

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    You´ve missed the point - I´m saying the Top 14 is increasingly involving m,ore teams from more parts of the country. In saying teams have fallen off the radar it means they have gone from the top flight. You keep mentioning Tarbes and Pau. Neither is a Top 14 team and neither has been for quite some time. Let me show you what you said...

     
  15. M Two One

    M Two One Tra la la la

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    I keep mentioning those towns as you keep missing the point. I've written information on finances among other things but these just seem to be overlooked. This is why everything has become so monotonous. Anyway, I have tried to contact you through PM a few days ago, but you've turned that feature off and I can't post details here just yet.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2011
  16. Canadian_Rugger

    Canadian_Rugger Academy Player

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    Dude, I have been to France before I know what Leclerc is... lets be honest here rugby money is chump change compared to most professional sports organizations worldwide. Pro rugby does not yet attract the money of other major sports. Yes Toulouse budget is 33 million euros... big deal that probably wouldn't even put it in the top 200 or 300 sports teams worldwide... give it 15 or 20 years an you will see small market teams disappear in rugby.
     
  17. M Two One

    M Two One Tra la la la

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    You didn't answer my questions. I did not ask you what Leclerc is and you avoided everything else. What does that tell me?
     
  18. Canadian_Rugger

    Canadian_Rugger Academy Player

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    ehhh... you didn't ask any questions, and all you replied was how so many teams have corporate backing within their respective communities... fact is rugby is still an infant sport by professional standards and small town clubs are going to be left in the dust, maybe not now, maybe not in 5 years but eventually the game is going to move on. Toulouse spend big money by rugby standards but its chump change when compared with other more est pro sports. Small clubs will eventually not be able to compete its a reality of pro sport.
     
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