Toulouse boost front row

[TRF_Cymro]

Toulouse have signed Georgian international hooker Akvsenti Giorgadze in a bid to solve their front row problems.

http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/7399486/
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[nickdnz]

The French attitude to front rows always confuses me. Many French people are adiment that they have the most dominant front row at international level, yet their clubs always seem to recruite their front rows from overseas. Toulouse has Giorgadze (Georgia), Basualdo (Argentina), Botha (South Africa), Guinazu (Argentina), Falefa (Samoa), Hoeft (New Zealand), Human (South Africa), Guthro Steenkamp (South Africa) and Johnston (Samoa) all on their roster, with only Servat, Montes and Poux being from France.

 

[Melhor Time]

The French attitude to front rows always confuses me. Many French people are adiment that they have the most dominant front row at international level, yet their clubs always seem to recruite their front rows from overseas. Toulouse has Giorgadze (Georgia), Basualdo (Argentina), Botha (South Africa), Guinazu (Argentina), Falefa (Samoa), Hoeft (New Zealand), Human (South Africa), Guthro Steenkamp (South Africa) and Johnston (Samoa) all on their roster, with only Servat, Montes and Poux being from France.

Squads need at least three hookers and six props and there are 14 teams. You do the math.....

France´s best tighthead prop this year has been Nicolas Mas of Perpignan. The club has nine props. Only Jerome Schuster is of international standard and elligible for France. others are ok bit not outstanding. Fabian Barcella is highly talented and plays for Biarritz with six other props including a guy who couldn´t make the All Blacks and another who can´t make the Pumas.

Test teams need only three top level props and two hookers. Most can´t even tick both these boxes. Owen Franks and Tony Woodcock can but their replacements can´t. Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins can but their replacements can´t. I´d rate Mas, Barcella and Domingo as being world class. Poux and Luc Ducalcon are inferior but would probably still make the All Blacks or Welsh bench.

BTW Guiñazú and Vernet Basulado are no longer at Toulouse. Both left after the World Cup as their contracts expired. They´re in Argentina.

 

[nickdnz]

Squads need at least three hookers and six props and there are 14 teams. You do the math.....

France´s best tighthead prop this year has been Nicolas Mas of Perpignan. The club has nine props. Only Jerome Schuster is of international standard and elligible for France. others are ok bit not outstanding. Fabian Barcella is highly talented and plays for Biarritz with six other props including a guy who couldn´t make the All Blacks and another who can´t make the Pumas.

Test teams need only three top level props and two hookers. Most can´t even tick both these boxes. Owen Franks and Tony Woodcock can but their replacements can´t. Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins can but their replacements can´t. I´d rate Mas, Barcella and Domingo as being world class. Poux and Luc Ducalcon are inferior but would probably still make the All Blacks or Welsh bench.

BTW Guiñazú and Vernet Basulado are no longer at Toulouse. Both left after the World Cup as their contracts expired. They´re in Argentina.

Actually, I thought Tony Woodcock should have missed out on the RWC all together for Wyatt Crockett. Woodcock actually had a superb RWC, so I'm happy to be wrong, but Crockett is still the most destructive prop in NZ in my opinion, and his penalty count has gone down. I'm sure if you ask any of the Irish members whether they would like John Afoa in their national team, they'd be happy to take him. Ben Franks is also a very good prop and I'd take him over any French prop bar Mas. We also have Jamie Mackintosh who is a brilliant prop if he learned how to scrummage (I guess it's the same as saying he'd be a brilliant sprinter if he could run, but he is very good at the other stuff).

Interestingly I was going to mention Perpignan as I know they are a very good scrummaging side (probably the best currently in Europe), but other than Mas I can't comment on most of them as I don't see them often (other than Perry Freshwater who I'm sure was retired but not according to Wikipedia) and Marius Tincu (who's from Romania and is a fantastic hooker as you well know).

It still seems strange to me though. I get that they have long seasons, but New Zealand only has a handful of foreigners playing prop and seem to manage (with the NPC + Super Rugby you still have nearly 30 games, which while it's still short on the Top 14, it's not that few).

By the way, I'd be interested to hear what you think of the Crusaders scrum last season (with Ben Franks, Owen Franks and Wyatt Crockett)

 

[ZeFrenchy]

French clubs (and english too) play lots of games and have to present sides of comparable quality in two different compatitions, both of which are very demanding. Frontrowers are the ones that need most rotation, and in France we give a lot of importance to the scrum as a platform, probably second only to Argentina among tier one nations (South Africa probably comes close). Therefore each club needs at least 10 frontrowers. The three best paid positions are: TH prop, then LH prop and then hooker...
France (or at least most of it) is a country where rugby is not a very popular sport. Having 300-odd frontrowers of professional quality is impossible. As players are not centrally contracted, clubs prefer to hire a Georgian, Argentinean or Romanian frontrower instead of a not-so-good french one. This plays against the national side, but clubs don't really care. Therefore clubs as Toulouse have around half of their frontrowers coming from abroad (6/12). Some other numbers (they may be inaccurate due to WC or medical jokers):
Clermont: 3/10
Perpignan: 4/14
Biarritz: 5/12

By the way, Giorgadze was hired as a medical joker after Botha's injury. And Botha sucks.


And re: Crusaders scrum, I think they would do very well in Europe, they are among the best in the world, imo. In Europe you need more depth though.

 

[profitius]

Foreign props is a big problem in Ireland which is probably the main reason the IRFU are bringing in strict new rules. Irish teams are starting to take scrummaging more seriously these days though. Before being able to scrum came second to what the player could do around the field. The Aussies had the same attitude. The French have so many teams that they have plenty of French props to choose from still.

 

[Peat]

It still seems strange to me though. I get that they have long seasons, but New Zealand only has a handful of foreigners playing prop and seem to manage (with the NPC + Super Rugby you still have nearly 30 games, which while it's still short on the Top 14, it's not that few).

Not to be overly blase, but there's a difference between finding enough top class props to fill 5 teams, and to fill 14 teams. Particularly if you want players with international experience.

 

[psychic duck]

1: Thomas Domingo, Jean-Baptiste Poux, Fabien Barcella, Jérôme Schuster, Yannick Forestier, Laurent Emmanuelli, Olivier Milloud, Lionel Faure
2: William Servat, Dimitri Szarzewski, Guilhem Guirado, Benjamin Noirot, Benjamin Kayser, Sébastien Bruno, Mathieu Bonnello, Benoît August
3: Nicolas Mas, Luc Ducalcon, Sylvain Marconnet, Clément Ric, Benoît Lecouls, David Attoub, Rabah Slimani

If France had 4/5 teams they could easily fill the front row with players better than Peter Borlase

 

[big ginger 8]

Oi leave it out.

 

[Peat]

If France had 4/5 teams they could easily fill the front row with players better than Peter Borlase

:lol: That's cold. Ice cold.

Could use a dig about Buckley as well mind.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Could use a dig about Buckley as well mind.

Was gonna say - it's not as if Ireland produce good props is Buckley can get 25 caps

 

[big ginger 8]

Buckley got those caps because as has been said the scrum came second. I think some people who knew nothing about the front-row took one look at him and thought **** he's gonna be good. What an idiot.

 

[Feicarsinn]

1: Thomas Domingo, Jean-Baptiste Poux, Fabien Barcella, Jérôme Schuster, Yannick Forestier, Laurent Emmanuelli, Olivier Milloud, Lionel Faure
2: William Servat, Dimitri Szarzewski, Guilhem Guirado, Benjamin Noirot, Benjamin Kayser, Sébastien Bruno, Mathieu Bonnello, Benoît August
3: Nicolas Mas, Luc Ducalcon, Sylvain Marconnet, Clément Ric, Benoît Lecouls, David Attoub, Rabah Slimani

If France had 4/5 teams they could easily fill the front row with players better than Peter Borlase

Yes, because French clubs are bloody massively rich.

 

[nickdnz]

Not to be overly blase, but there's a difference between finding enough top class props to fill 5 teams, and to fill 14 teams. Particularly if you want players with international experience.

That would be a good argument, had New Zealand rugby only had 5 teams which players play in. It doesn't. NPC/ITM Cup has 14 teams, and every player other than a handful of All Blacks play in the NPC at any one point in time.

 

[Melhor Time]

That would be a good argument, had New Zealand rugby only had 5 teams which players play in. It doesn't. NPC/ITM Cup has 14 teams, and every player other than a handful of All Blacks play in the NPC at any one point in time.

The simple answer is that Biarritz vs Racing Métro is on a different level to North Harbour vs Southland. Yet its the bottom French side vs the 6th placed side. Try having 26 league matches then the barrage, Semi Finals and Final. Add to this the Heineken Cup or Amlin Challenge Cup and international duty. The club season is 26 French matches + 6 European matches + playoffs.

ITM Cup is vastly inferior to Super Rugby. Most All Blacks play less than three games in the ITM Cup per season. The Crusaders are vastly better than Canterbury. Clermont in the Top 14 Orange and Clermont in the Heineken Cup are the same. Its only in the Amlin Challenge Cup that teams are weakened. Stade Français´ big names missed the matches vs Bucaresti. This means the club has a group of players to replace the starting XV and most replacements. Hence the big squads.

Consider that Morgan Parra was France´s World Cup flyhalf. He is scrumhalf for Clermont and the team has two notable flyhalves in Brock James and David Skrela. Both play a lot. The season is long and so, they are constantly rotated. Stade Français rested Felipe Contepomi for the Amlin matches vs Romanian and Italian opposition as they can win without him. But for all Top 14 games he´s the clubs flyhalf. This is the difference between having a player surplus and needing depth.

Clubs who lose players to injury have been seen to lose matches and this can be catastrophic with not only Heineken Cup places on the line but also Top 14 Orange places. The bottom two are automatically relegated - something often misunderstood. It means clubs need to win not just score try after try like in Super Rugby. Biarritz and Perpignan are in serious danger. Both have been French Champions since RWC 2003 and Heineken Cup Semi Finalists in the´past two years.

Castres have lost their 10 and 12 and have not won in the Top 14 for six rounds. Toulon have Wilkinson yet have bought both Giteau and Michalak. This is for two reasons - 1. Have quality cover if Wilko were to get injured, 2. be able to rest him so that he does not get fatigued as he, alongside the two others is not so young anymore. This is for flyhalves... Its much worse for more phyiscally demanding positions like prop. A good example is Clermont who lost Domingo last season to injury and the club was not the same in the scrums despite having plenty of other players.

 

[Peat]

The Top 14, nevermind the Heineken, is at a higher (and richer) standard than ITM Cup. I consider a team such as Toulouse as equivalent to Crusaders, not Canterbury.

Or, what Melhor wrote.

 

[kovana]

Its strange that France is able to have a single team compete at domestic and international level e.g. Toulouse in Top 14 and HC..

Yet NZ where Rugby is Number one cannot do this.

 

[nickdnz]

The simple answer is that Biarritz vs Racing Métro is on a different level to North Harbour vs Southland. Yet its the bottom French side vs the 6th placed side. Try having 26 league matches then the barrage, Semi Finals and Final. Add to this the Heineken Cup or Amlin Challenge Cup and international duty. The club season is 26 French matches + 6 European matches + playoffs.

ITM Cup is vastly inferior to Super Rugby. Most All Blacks play less than three games in the ITM Cup per season. The Crusaders are vastly better than Canterbury. Clermont in the Top 14 Orange and Clermont in the Heineken Cup are the same. Its only in the Amlin Challenge Cup that teams are weakened. Stade Français´ big names missed the matches vs Bucaresti. This means the club has a group of players to replace the starting XV and most replacements. Hence the big squads.

Consider that Morgan Parra was France´s World Cup flyhalf. He is scrumhalf for Clermont and the team has two notable flyhalves in Brock James and David Skrela. Both play a lot. The season is long and so, they are constantly rotated. Stade Français rested Felipe Contepomi for the Amlin matches vs Romanian and Italian opposition as they can win without him. But for all Top 14 games he´s the clubs flyhalf. This is the difference between having a player surplus and needing depth.

Clubs who lose players to injury have been seen to lose matches and this can be catastrophic with not only Heineken Cup places on the line but also Top 14 Orange places. The bottom two are automatically relegated - something often misunderstood. It means clubs need to win not just score try after try like in Super Rugby. Biarritz and Perpignan are in serious danger. Both have been French Champions since RWC 2003 and Heineken Cup Semi Finalists in the´past two years.

Castres have lost their 10 and 12 and have not won in the Top 14 for six rounds. Toulon have Wilkinson yet have bought both Giteau and Michalak. This is for two reasons - 1. Have quality cover if Wilko were to get injured, 2. be able to rest him so that he does not get fatigued as he, alongside the two others is not so young anymore. This is for flyhalves... Its much worse for more phyiscally demanding positions like prop. A good example is Clermont who lost Domingo last season to injury and the club was not the same in the scrums despite having plenty of other players.

We always have different opinions about the player quality of teams in the Top 14 and Super Rugby, never mind NPC. With that in mind, looking at Wellington's squad in last years competition you had signed for the Lions:

1. John Schwalger
2. Dan Coles
3. Neemia Tialata (All Black)
4. Jeremy Thrush
5. Mark Reddish
6. Faifilli Levave
7. Brad Shields
8. Victor Vito
9. Alby Mathewson
10. Piri Weepu
11. Hosea Gear
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
14. Julian Savea
15. Cory Jane

I'm confident that squad could give Toulouse a run for it's money, and I don't think the Top 14 is vastly superior. Super Rugby is superior in a sense, because it's the collected talent of the country split into five, but there is no doubt that Wellington Lions have a better squad this year to the Hurricanes, due to Wellington players such as Mathewson, Weepu, Gear and Nonu all playing elsewhere. Some of the best and most exciting players don't get a look in when it comes to Super Rugby, but would start for some of the French clubs. Biarritz while on the bottom of the T14, it's not really their usual position is it? I'm fairly confident that teams such as Brive, Lyon, Union Bordeaux Bègles, Agen and Bayonnais would find it hard to compete with teams in the ITM Cup. Some of the teams such as Racing Metro, Toulon, Toulouse, Biarritz (usually), Castras, Clermont, Stade Francais would normally be better than teams in the ITM Cup and many teams in Super Rugby.

I wasn't trying to say it's weird that French clubs have more players than any individual team in NZ, it does however seem strange that such a large portion of front rowers especially (even though there need to be so many) are bought in to start for French clubs, who pride themselves on their front rowers. Not all 8 props start often, even in the smaller competitions such as Amlin Challenge Cup, so it would make more sense to me to bring in average French props and train them up than to buy overseas props who are better but not French. That was what I was trying to say. It just seems a waste of money, and contrary to French opinions of front rowers.

I suppose coming to think about it from your view, the clubs have the money to spend on talent they like, why not use it? Even if you have great players, you can buy more if it improves your odds, which I suppose makes sense but is quite far removed from the views of New Zealanders with out money.

Its strange that France is able to have a single team compete at domestic and international level e.g. Toulouse in Top 14 and HC..

Yet NZ where Rugby is Number one cannot do this.

What?

I know you seem to hate New Zealand in almost every post, but at least try and make some of your arguments and criticisms sensical.

For a start, France has a more powerful economy which allows privatisation of clubs (so they can buy talent that they don't produce), a population with over 10X that of New Zealand and more than double the number of registed rugby players than New Zealand.

Also, what's this about Toulouse competing at international level? You mean some clubs are able to have one team that competes in an international club competition and a domestic competition? New Zealand could do that too if it wished (and I wish it would). Money is the big factor, not player depth (it's much harder to pay 14 teams in the top devision of NZ rugby than 5). And let's not make out that France's situation is so different than New Zealand's. Not every Top 14 Club can play in the H-Cup, infact only 6 French teams can play in the H-Cup at any one point of time (not vastly different from the 5 that play from any one country in Super Rugby. Many French teams would get destroyed in the H-Cup, but don't qualify to play in it.

 

[kovana]

What?

I know you seem to hate New Zealand in almost every post

Sorry if it seems that way. But no. I dont hate my own nation of birth... What i do dislike is the NZRU and how they are undermining the strength of their own domestic teams.

For a start, France has a more powerful economy which allows privatisation of clubs (so they can buy talent that they don't produce), a population with over 10X that of New Zealand and more than double the number of registed rugby players than New Zealand.

Also, what's this about Toulouse competing at international level? You mean some clubs are able to have one team that competes in an international club competition and a domestic competition? New Zealand could do that too if it wished (and I wish it would). Money is the big factor, not player depth (it's much harder to pay 14 teams in the top devision of NZ rugby than 5). And let's not make out that France's situation is so different than New Zealand's. Not every Top 14 Club can play in the H-Cup, infact only 6 French teams can play in the H-Cup at any one point of time (not vastly different from the 5 that play from any one country in Super Rugby. Many French teams would get destroyed in the H-Cup, but don't qualify to play in it.

Sorry but Nick.. Do you have any figures for how much the SR nz teams get funding in comparision to the NPC teams?

And its good to see you would rather have your own provincial team playing in the top flight.

To me.. The SR teams are the reason for Rugby in NZ being somewhat apathetic to the NZ provincial teams...

SR teams such as Canes etc.. Losing support from the other provinces because they are hardly represented....
And NPC teams hardly get any support since it is seen as not really the premier comp in NZ.. what with most of the best players not even playing in the NPC.


And of course.. North Harbour with Auckland to make up the Blues.. NO!!! I am a avid Auckland supporter.. and used to support the Blues.. But now i find it hard to do so. Auckland all the way,.

 

[nickdnz]

Sorry if it seems that way. But no. I dont hate my own nation of birth... What i do dislike is the NZRU and how they are undermining the strength of their own domestic teams.



Sorry but Nick.. Do you have any figures for how much the SR nz teams get funding in comparision to the NPC teams?

And its good to see you would rather have your own provincial team playing in the top flight.

To me.. The SR teams are the reason for Rugby in NZ being somewhat apathetic to the NZ provincial teams...

SR teams such as Canes etc.. Losing support from the other provinces because they are hardly represented....
And NPC teams hardly get any support since it is seen as not really the premier comp in NZ.. what with most of the best players not even playing in the NPC.


And of course.. North Harbour with Auckland to make up the Blues.. NO!!! I am a avid Auckland supporter.. and used to support the Blues.. But now i find it hard to do so. Auckland all the way,.

I agree that Super Rugby should be changed. I think that Canterbury, Wellington, Waikato, Auckland etc would be very competitive if we decided to make them the most important thing. I've always wanted out domestic set up to be the most important comp, get rid of SR and have a secondary competition like the H-Cup. The big issue is money and travel, which make it nearly impossible.

Part of the reason a team like Toulouse and other French teams are able to have only one team and not devide it like we do, is that any team they play is within a 1-2 hour plane ride. Even the smaller teams can afford that (to play a French team against a English team is not any more expensive than Canterbury playing Waikato). To have a New Zealand team play a South African team is a LOT more expensive, as there is a 13 or so hour flight.