When will the bubble burst?

[RichardRheeder]

Good Morning all

I'm relatively new to posting on this forum, although I signed up a few years ago already . I thought about raising a topic I feel everybody in the Southern Hemisphere has an opinion on, but nobody can actually find a solution for, which is the current state of the domestic game. Yes we've got a conveyor belt producing talented rugby players at a pace, which shows that the development isn't lost in the SANZAR nations. It's starting to feel rather like Super Rugby has lost its appeal, which is definitely evident with the more-than-half empty stadiums on any given Saturday. Being based in Cape Town for the best part of my 24 year life, an outing to Newlands to watch the Stormers and Western Province play used to be an exciting way to spend your Saturday, however for the past 2 seasons, it's felt within my friendship group like we can't really be bothered with Super Rugby anymore (not related to the Stormer's log standings these last 2 years ), and find more enjoyment in watching our local Western Province Super League club, and Currie Cup rugby, with all its tradition still seems to capture the imagination of local rugby fans year in and year out.

The next point in my argument, is the exodus of big names to European and Japanese leagues. I believe this also plays a huge role in the current state of our Super Rugby game, considering the poor showing by South African teams in this year's edition, one would've expected a state of panic ahead of the International season, but this hasn't happened due to the argument that a growing amount of our best players are all in Europe or Japan, and they will be back to perform for us in the upcoming International season. The recent Heineken Cup final between Saracens and Toulon would've left many a South African fan smiling, given the performances of our local guys. And having been a follower of the Heineken Cup since 2004 (I was 14 at the time), it's as if there's a growing number of South African rugby fans who are able to talk European rugby, whereas a few years ago no-one would've batted an eye towards these teams down here. I think the two main reasons this is happening is the increasing number of South African born and bred players in Europe, and our satellite broadcaster showing an increasing number of Heineken Cup/Aviva Premiership/Top 14 games every weekend.

The main reason our players are leaving for these Northern Hemisphere leagues, is to prolong their rugby careers (point in evidence Japan's Top League), and the financial incentive they will never receive playing at home. With players being recruited to the north at a much younger age (Johan Goosen's recent Racing Metro signing at 21), won't it start diluting our player pool in the South even more, or will we just continue to develop more talent?

To get to my point of argument, has the game in the Southern Hemisphere reached a point where drastic changes need to be made? South Africa, Australia and New Zealand all have their own set of demands for Super Rugby, and the new proposed format feels more like a compromise to keep everyone happy, to the detriment of the players and the viewing public. Has the time come for SANZAR to explore other alternatives? Is it time to link up with the North and start considering a global season? I'm not going to lie, from a provincial/club level, Heineken Cup rugby has started looking a lot more attractive as a viewing spectacle than Super Rugby, partly due to the international flavour added to each team.

I found an interesting article by a local rugby writer which I thought I'd share, although I don't agree with a lot of what he says, he has a few valid points, which could lead to an integrated Global Season incorporating club and internationals into one (non-overlapping) calendar.

http://www.sport24.co.za/Columnists/TankLanning/Vulgar-IPL-to-rescue-rugby-20140529

 

[Sam Owen]

I for one dont really watch the Super as much as I use to. I only really enjoy it when the Blues are looking like finalists. It has gone boring compared to how I found it years ago.

Maybe its the conference thing, watching the NZ teams play each other an awful lot. Im not sure whats happened but its not the same and seems to be getting worse for me. Guys like Fekitoa, Folau keep me watching but thats about it.

Supers not good IMO. I only like the tri-nations games and the June tests. Those are the only Union games I look forward to.

I like the way the Australians have gone about the NRL. Everything about the NRL is just well set out, particularly for the TV viewer. From the fireworks, players coming out to Led Zepplins Kashmir (which is now being copied by some of the Super games), the analysis, the pre-game stories, the hillarious footy show, the way they give back to charities and other stuff. The NRL has excelled from the days of the Winfield Cup. Maybe Super should take a leaf out of the NRLs books.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I think everyone wants a global season, except for the powers in the Northern Hemisphere. Go figure

 

[smartcooky]

I have followed the Heineken Cup for the last several years, but I watch it from a position of not caring who wins. Mostly, I just watch highlights not full games. I just can't sit through 80 minutes of the way they play the game up north, when I don't have a stake in the outcome.

IMO, Super Rugby was at its best when it was Super 12, and it jumped the shark when it went to 14 teams. It has gone downhill ever since, to a point where in 2016, we are going to have a complicated competition that the average fan wont understand without a degree in Applied Mathematics, with an Argentine team that won't contain many, if any, of the best Argentine players, and an "Asia" based team that, well frankly, I have no idea where the players are going to come from. The ARU and the NZRU have both made it clear that they wont be coming from their stocks.

All this because SARU threw a tantrum and threatened to take their toys home if they didn't get a sixth team; an addition that will further dilute their already shallow talent pool. Its just what the competition didn't need, another poorly performed South African team.

I can see me ignoring Super Rugby in 2016, and just waiting for the June tests then the ITM Cup.

 

[gaston le gaff]

When would everyone play a global season eg the south of France can get up to 40° in the summer not great for playing rugby and then in the SH its winter so where would you plan the season from start to finish, not easy, also summer is an off time although the players start training again for next season around the last week of June but normally thats a 7.00/7.30 start and they finish around lunchtime......... taking out some of the Internationals and getting every country to play the same number of Championship games would be a start but the global thing is just very complicated for me.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think everyone wants a global season, except for the powers in the Northern Hemisphere. Go figure

http://intheloose.com/2014/05/30/proposals-put-forward-new-global-season-structure-rugby/

In a manifesto outlined to The Rugby Paper, Craig (Bath Owner) has called for:

- The existing June and November Test windows to be scrapped and merged into a new six-week international window from mid-August to late-September, enabling outgoing and incoming tours to be confined within a single block.

- The Six Nations to be slashed from seven to six weeks in the second window of international fixtures.

- The Northern Hemisphere club rugby season to be played in two blocks – October to mid-February and April to June – thereby ensuring no overlaps between domestic and international rugby during the two Test match windows. The idea would be for the Super Rugby season to play out between February and July with no break for internationals, whilst the Rugby Championship would run through October and November.

- Individual player programmes (IPP) to be devised for England’s elite players, ensuring welfare standards are improved.

 

[nzlizard]

With the point to the SA players playing in Europe the SARU has said they will pick overseas based players, that just opens the door for players establish themselves quickly in SA then move to a Europe team for big monies and still be eligible for national honors. As long as that happens then the drain will continue and SA will continue to field 3 sub par teams each year, weakening the franchises only weakens the fan base and lessens the interest.

I read somewhere there was talk of NZ picking players who play super rugby in NZ or Aus, as a fan that is about as far as I would draw the line for AB selection, our strenght in rugby is based around our playing super rugby in NZ policy(unless your Dan Carter).

I was a hardcore super rugby fan and watched seasons of it and agree that super 12 was the best form, tbh a lot of people I talk to are slowly losing interest in super rugby and like stated about when the new format comes out it will only increase. I love the local derbies as the level of competition is high but would rather teams play each other just once and they play all the teams, really hard to win when you have to play the Bulls and Sharks in SA while another team only has to play the Lions and Cheetahs.

The highlight of the year is definitely test rugby and for me I am starting to have a real increased interest in ITM cup and it is a high paced energized version of rugby.

 

[nzlizard]

http://intheloose.com/2014/05/30/proposals-put-forward-new-global-season-structure-rugby/

In a manifesto outlined to The Rugby Paper, Craig (Bath Owner) has called for:

- The existing June and November Test windows to be scrapped and merged into a new six-week international window from mid-August to late-September, enabling outgoing and incoming tours to be confined within a single block.

- The Six Nations to be slashed from seven to six weeks in the second window of international fixtures.

- The Northern Hemisphere club rugby season to be played in two blocks – October to mid-February and April to June – thereby ensuring no overlaps between domestic and international rugby during the two Test match windows. The idea would be for the Super Rugby season to play out between February and July with no break for internationals, whilst the Rugby Championship would run through October and November.

- Individual player programmes (IPP) to be devised for England’s elite players, ensuring welfare standards are improved.

This sounds good but what a long season for some players, but like you said managing player welfare most probably becomes easier with the blocks of rugby in place.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Suppose the top players in the NH and SH will get around 2 months off which on the whole which is around the same, now but instead of having to play test at the end or in the middle of the domestic season, they will get a break in between them.

Would allow national teams to stop worrying about player releases, and also clubs to not worry about the international windows.

I like the idea and think it could work very well. But I know people dead against it.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Eish!

Another thread about this whole debacle... I'm getting a bit squeemish regarding this topic.

My 2 cents:

I find it funny that all of a sudden that the finger is being pointed to SARU alone, and that they are now demanding an expansion again.

We are in this sinking ship because of what already happened. And this was thanx to the Aussies that demanded expansion. When it was the Super 12, the idea was perfect, and there weren't so many games. Then John O'niel decided, that it's too simple, we must complicate things more, and hope that the Aussie teams get's a bigger benefit, only for the Reds to win since the expansion happened.

I still love watching Super Rugby. And I try to watch all the games on a Saturday. It's a good way to wake up with cup of coffee and watch the games in Australasia, and then in the afternoon, with friends and a braai, the games in SA.

It has been talked about so much before that I really don't want to get into those discussions before. But people shouldn't put SA in the same boat as AUS and NZ. That can only happen when NZ and AUS have the same issues with regards to political interference, quota systems, very poor currency and other third world country problems. SARU is trying a balancing act, and because they don't have the centralised contract system like NZ, they have no choice but to give guys the opportunity to go abroad if they want to. Some will return, others won't. It's not only because of the money, but some players feel that the competition is too stiff in SA that they won't get the chance to play for SA.

The main thing is though, that SARU still holds the idea of being a Springbok, and representing your country in the highest regard. We want to be the best, and we will pick the best, no matter where they play. As for the dilution, what do you propose we do? There are such a high demand for more teams to give our young guns more opportunities, that we don't have a choice but to try and expand, otherwise even more guys will just move abroad anyways.

The only thing that we read in newspapers are when a bigshot like Johan Goosen, Frans Steyn, Bakkies Botha etc. moves to the NH. but we never read about the guys fresh out of grade 12, go to Italy, America, England and France, as well other rugby developing nations. I bet there are many!

 

[Big Ewis]

I for one

and one for I.

 

[smartcooky]

http://intheloose.com/2014/05/30/proposals-put-forward-new-global-season-structure-rugby/

In a manifesto outlined to The Rugby Paper, Craig (Bath Owner) has called for:

- The existing June and November Test windows to be scrapped and merged into a new six-week international window from mid-August to late-September, enabling outgoing and incoming tours to be confined within a single block.

- The Six Nations to be slashed from seven to six weeks in the second window of international fixtures.

- The Northern Hemisphere club rugby season to be played in two blocks – October to mid-February and April to June – thereby ensuring no overlaps between domestic and international rugby during the two Test match windows. The idea would be for the Super Rugby season to play out between February and July with no break for internationals, whilst the Rugby Championship would run through October and November.

- Individual player programmes (IPP) to be devised for England’s elite players, ensuring welfare standards are improved.

Almost a good idea, except, where is the eight weeks we need for The Rugby Championship?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Almost a good idea, except, where is the eight weeks we need for The Rugby Championship?

Craig thinks it could be done October - Novemeber.

 

[smartcooky]

Craig thinks it could be done October - Novemeber.

So this is roughly what he is suggesting

NH Elite players complete rest July to mid August

SH Elite players complete rest December to January

 

[Rich Taff]

I just can't sit through 80 minutes of the way they play the game up north

With refs following rules?

 

[Big Ewis]

With refs following rules?

We really need an official TRF joke-crackin' drumroll...I'll figure smt out.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

So this is roughly what he is suggesting

NH Elite players complete rest July to mid August.



SH Elite players complete rest December to January

Pretty much from what I can tell.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

With refs following rules?

I find that statement very interesting. Clearly you would not have said that if you didn't believe it to be true. Would you mind to clarify?

I am asking precisely because I've always held an opposite belief in the idea that SH refs follow the rules closer than their NH counterparts- at least when it comes to the break down- and that is the reason for quicker ball here in the Southern hemisphere.

So this is roughly what he is suggesting

NH Elite players complete rest July to mid August

SH Elite players complete rest December to January

That actually looks highly workable. 1 international test window with 6N and RC seperately should really be enough. A month and a half of test rugby could mean the return of proper tours. If nations want to organize things amongst themselves outside of that then that is apart from the framework. I don't have a problem with our test players not being involved with the Currie Cup, it actually means the players that have gotten their teams into the play-offs get to play in the finals whereas as things stand now the Bokke return and play the finals and those players get thanked and benched. I would say my only problem with that graph is that the Currie Cup is indicated in pink.

 

[Bull]

SR has started losing it's appeal a couple of seasons ago and this has also affected the Currie Cup with the SR expanding and taking the stupid break. I for one have come to enjoy the HC, Top 14 and Aviva a lot more in recent years and after watching the recent finals the rugby to me was certainly of a higher standard than the current SR season.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

SR has started losing it's appeal a couple of seasons ago and this has also affected the Currie Cup with the SR expanding and taking the stupid break. I for one have come to enjoy the HC, Top 14 and Aviva a lot more in recent years and after watching the recent finals the rugby to me was certainly of a higher standard than the current SR season.

Agreed but SR has an opportunity to get right again but some things has to happen;

- SA needs to get some of the 80 odd pro players playing in the NH back; we need some of our experienced players here to act as a core and for our rookies to come up through the ranks with the older players there to play off of.
- no break
- less derbies, IMO no return matches
- simpler tournament framework
- shorter (even if only slightly so) season

If that could happen we could have a good product again but it wil probably not happen with everything the SARU, ARU and NZRU are wanting to balance.