Italy’s future in 6N

[Ospervat]

Does Italy deserve to continue playing in the 6N?

They are again at their lowest world ranking ever at 15.
They’ve now lost 36 consecutive games in the competition. Their last win was Feb 2015 v Scotland.
They haven’t had a 6N home victory since 2013 - that’s 19 consecutive losses at home.

Is it time to drop them in favour of a more competitive N hemisphere side OR introduce new sides to the completion eg Japan, Georgia, USA etc who will at the very least provide a more or less equivalent level of opposition.

 

[bushytop]

I’ve said this for a few years but personally I would like to see a two legged play-off between the wooden-spooners and Rugby European Championship winners. Can’t see it happening though as Italy offer so much more than most of the nations within the Rugby European Championship in terms of both economic and rugby infrastructure. Most of the other nations offer one or the other but not really both.

 

[TommiG88]

How can they have 36 consecutive losses if they play 5 games a year in the 6N?

 

[Ospervat]

I’ve said this for a few years but personally I would like to see a two legged play-off between the wooden-spooners and Rugby European Championship winners. Can’t see it happening though as Italy offer so much more than most of the nations within the Rugby European Championship in terms of both economic and rugby infrastructure. Most of the other nations offer one or the other but not really both.

There has to be something better than the current structure. Whether it’s something like you suggest or some other solution - either way the current format is ridiculous - getting trounced week after week.
The IRB or whichever body responsible should/need to take a long hard look at it.
22 years in and their game is still way off Tier 1 standard.
Being cannon fodder is cruel.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

How can they have 36 consecutive losses if they play 5 games a year in the 6N?

What do you mean?

 

[Ospervat]

How can they have 36 consecutive losses if they play 5 games a year

How can they have 36 consecutive losses if they play 5 games a year in the 6N?

Correction 31

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Simple answer: no they don't. Cut it back down to 5 nations. Not sure Georgia would be much better and Italy are probably better than them.

 

[bushytop]

There has to be something better than the current structure. Whether it’s something like you suggest or some other solution - either way the current format is ridiculous - getting trounced week after week.
The IRB or whichever body responsible should/need to take a long hard look at it.
22 years in and their game is still way off Tier 1 standard.
Being cannon fodder is cruel.

Yeah and a season of trouncing every team in the Rugby European Championship could only serve to build some confidence within the Italian team... I don’t even think it would come to that though. Italy would probably still beat Georgia (or whomever) 9 times out of 10 in a play-off.

The other issues are that a lot of money has been invested in to Italy to legitimise them and people are loathe to pull the plug when their in deep... also I’m sure that the Italian Rugby Union has a part ownership of the 6 Nations (I could be wrong on that though).

 

[bushytop]

Simple answer: no they don't. Cut it back down to 5 nations. Not sure Georgia would be much better and Italy are probably better than them.

Everyone sees things differently but I’d still rather a 6 team comp so that every nation is involved during every round. I’d rather thump Italy than Wales not play at all that weekend... still I agree that as it stands it is far from ideal.

 

[Gavin]

Definitely worth it. Maybe not in match results, but an away trip to Rome is worth their participation.

I'm also pretty sure I read somewhere that they had a massive injury list, coupled with an incredibly young side they are bound to struggle.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

They are boring to watch and offer nothing. Well past time to bin them off. They aren’t getting better any time soon so they just need to go into a lower competition.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Do they deserve their place? Subjective and dependant on a lot of factors, based on the standards of other teams no. Although they have structures in place and we're winning regularly at 20s level pre covid.

Is the tournament better for having them, yes. It's already heavily influenced by who you have at home amd with 6 day turnarounds v 7 day turnarounds. Throw bye weeks into the mix and it's barely worth playing.

 

[Ospervat]

Definitely worth it. Maybe not in match results, but an away trip to Rome is worth their participation.

I'm also pretty sure I read somewhere that they had a massive injury list, coupled with an incredibly young side they are bound to struggle.

Fair enough - valid points for the 2021 6N to a degree. However that would indicate that they don’t have much depth in their talent pool which after 20 odd years of investment is a worry.

I’m also taking a more holistic view and not just looking at the last few weeks results.
An interesting exercise might be to look at their W/L PF/PA and TF/TA stats for 2000-2005 and compare to 2016-2021 to see if their is any improvement in real terms relative to the home nations and France.

 

[bushytop]

Fair enough - valid points for the 2021 6N to a degree. However that would indicate that they don’t have much depth in their talent pool which after 20 odd years of investment is a worry.

I’m also taking a more holistic view and not just looking at the last few weeks results.
An interesting exercise might be to look at their W/L PF/PA and TF/TA stats for 2000-2005 and compare to 2016-2021 to see if their is any improvement in real terms relative to the home nations and France.

To be fair, that Italian team of the late 90’s and early 2000’s was a bloody good team... they’ve never really had that level of quality since. This current crop were a really good under 20 side though, so if nurtured correctly could end up being more competitive than they have been for a while.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

why do people think Italy havent improved much over the last 20 years? Argentina started to get compared to Italy after a couple of years in the RC and SR but the last fews years saw huge improvement

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

why do people think Italy havent improved much over the last 20 years? Argentina started to get compared to Italy after a couple of years in the RC and SR but the last fews years saw huge improvement

Are you asking why we don’t think Italy have improved in the last 20 years? It’s because they haven’t. Look at results and watch them play. Same mistakes, same boring losses for the last 20 years. Ignore what other teams have done, Italy definitely haven’t improved much if at all I’m afraid.

 

[bushytop]

why do people think Italy havent improved much over the last 20 years? Argentina started to get compared to Italy after a couple of years in the RC and SR but the last fews years saw huge improvement

A run of 30-something losses on the bounce and no sign of that run coming to an end. It could honestly stretch out past 50 or more judging by the performances this championship.

 

[Ospervat]

A run of 30-something losses on the bounce and no sign of that run coming to an end. It could honestly stretch out past 50 or more judging by the performances this championship.

Precisely. Something needs to be done to incentivise or even force them to step up and improve their development, quality of domestic competitions, depth of talent, game skills, management, structure, remuneration, coaching etc.
If not, then ciao.
I wouldn’t mind them losing 30 odd games in a row so much if the games were tighter - the margins are consistently increasing. That’s the issue that needs to be addressed.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Yeah, but why? Haven’t invested in their club comp? Haven’t developed the off field mental stuff? Haven’t developed game plans that work with the players they have?

saying they haven’t because they haven’t doesn’t answer much, are we just putting it down to the opposite of success beget success? Once your **** you can never come back?

Are you asking why we don’t think Italy have improved in the last 20 years? It’s because they haven’t. Look at results and watch them play. Same mistakes, same boring losses for the last 20 years. Ignore what other teams have done, Italy definitely haven’t improved much if at all I’m afraid.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Everyone sees things differently but I’d still rather a 6 team comp so that every nation is involved during every round. I’d rather thump Italy than Wales not play at all that weekend... still I agree that as it stands it is far from ideal.

I’d rather have Japan in the competition. Although it would detract from the European aspect of 6 nations. Of course SA has been offered as an alternative option. But I think they belong in the RC.

Just don’t see the point of Italy being in the six nations anymore, as year after year they are just favourites for the wooden spoon. Must be pretty dispiriting for their team.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I’d rather have Japan in the competition. Although it would detract from the European aspect of 6 nations. Of course SA has been offered as an alternative option. But I think they belong in the RC.

Just don’t see the point of Italy being in the six nations anymore, as year after year they are just favourites for the wooden spoon. Must be pretty dispiriting for their team.

Just remember those time differences bring their own issues, Id like to keep SA and add Japan but Japan works better for watching games

 

[bushytop]

I know people are suggesting alternative nations but it should always be exclusively European as far as I'm concerned. If it ain't Italy then there has to be a European pathway.

RWC's are great because that's when the hemispheres collide competitively... for the years in between competition should be within your respective hemisphere imho.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The issue is that Italy are way better than Georgia,
Don't agree with bringing Japan or South Africa in the 6N - but then I don't really want it dropped to 5 sides
Not sure what to do tbh, but a record of 12-1-95 (so far), and a points difference of -2028 needs to be addressed

Playoffs probably the best way of doing it, but I can't see Italy losing playoff games against the REC winners, whoever they are

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The problem isn't Italy as such, the problem is there aren't enough competitive rugby playing nations in the world. Rugby has done a **** poor job of promoting itself worldwide but even just for us, rugby outside the UK and France is virtually non-existent. American football has a larger presence and viewership in many European countries than rugby does.

Italy are whipping boys and that isn't changing. The problem is everyone else who can replace them would also be whipping boys. Japan looks like a good future prospect for the game with a large population, plenty of wealthy and a league that is drawing a lot of star players. The Italian league does not do this. WR should really get it's act together and see how American football promotes itself around the world and aim to emulate that. Not the corporatism but the proper global reach and exposure. At some point rugby has to accept it cannot hope to grow whilst it stays an old boys club. One big area of weakness is the lack of a good rugby video game. Look at all major sports in the world, they all have video games to get people interested. I've never watched basketball, ice hockey, tennis etc but I've played games with all of those. I watch rugby all the time yet never played a game for it.

Europe should be an ideal market to grow the sport as there isn't really an equivalent sport it would be competing with. They've just got to get their act together and stop living in the past.

So much as I feel Italy are an embarrassment to the tournament, I don't see any team that can replace them that could do a better job, except maybe Japan but they are right on the other side of the world... Having said that, I do feel some sort of playoff is required. Even if Italy win it 9/10 times, they should still have to prove they are better than the alternatives (basically Georgia).

 

[big ginger 8]

I think dropping Italy is the last thing rugby needs. There's few enough nations in top competition already.

I think Italy have actually improved at least in some aspects. They don't have the world class scrum they once had which effects their chances of winning key penalties. But their overall handling and intent have definitely improved. They've scored some decent tries this year that they never would have scored before. Although while I think they have improved in this area I think the other teams have improved a lot more in this area. The general handling across the full team in the NH is leagues apart from where it was even 10 years ago.

As noted by TAB the Italians are young enough and their last few 20s teams have been a lot more competitive. They haven't finished bottom of any of the last three u20s six nations. For years we were saying they had no halfbacks but with Varney and Garbisi they do look like they're onto something. They also don't have great depth so the loss of the likes of Polledri hurts them a lot more.

They're definitely not in a great situation right now but I do think there's potential for something that's at least better than current results within the next 2-3 years.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I wouldn’t mind them losing 30 odd games in a row so much if the games were tighter - the margins are consistently increasing. That’s the issue that needs to be addressed.

This. Scotland have had some poor runs over the last couple of decades, but even when they had lots of defeats, some of them were close. Italy, on the other hand, seem to get thrashed by a 30-40 point margin every game. They've never even managed a losing bonus point since they were introduced 5 tournaments ago.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Aren't the SA teams joining the Pro 14 soon? Is that a step towards SA joining the 6N? It would feel a bit odd if they played their club rugby against Europe and their international rugby against the southern hemisphere teams.

 

[bushytop]

@Not Eddie Jones They are but as far as I'm concerned SA as a national side have to stay in The Rugby Championship. As a northern hemisphere rugby fan I like the 'mystique' (no doubt the mystique has somewhat diminished) of the big 3 Southern Hemisphere teams.

I'd imagine that World Rugby are hoping that Spain could be an option eventually... decent economy, nice destination, large potential audience. I'd imagine that if it had of been Spain knocking on the door this last decade and not Georgia, that we may well have seen some form of promotion/relegation by now.

 

[MikeTheNative]

I'm sure the 6 nations would like to have SA joining but it would have to be from NZ/Aus' cold dead hands.