English rugby clubs ‘heading for disaster’ after mounting £300m in debts

[Vieux Talonneur]

They do need to give more money to the championship though.

Why?

On a professional basis we can barely sustain one division. The time will have to come when a (hopefully) 12 or 14 team Prem is formally ringfenced with the Championship being seen as the pinnacle of the amateur game - invest to make it vibrant, but distinct from the pro game.

Fully believe in the concept of promotion and relegation and the Exeter fairy story. But that’s just not where we’re at. And we’re not France, that analogy doesn’t work.

BTW. This isn’t what emotionally what I want to see, just realistically where I think we’ll have to end up. The gulf between the Prem and Championship is just too big.

Back on topic, at least Rugby Development Officers are going to be rehired.

 

[higgik]

Why?

On a professional basis we can barely sustain one division. The time will have to come when a (hopefully) 12 or 14 team Prem is formally ringfenced with the Championship being seen as the pinnacle of the amateur game - invest to make it vibrant, but distinct from the pro game.

Fully believe in the concept of promotion and relegation and the Exeter fairy story. But that's just not where we're at. And we're not France, that analogy doesn't work.

BTW. This isn't what emotionally what I want to see, just realistically where I think we'll have to end up. The gulf between the Prem and Championship is just too big.

Back on topic, at least Rugby Development Officers are going to be rehired.

Exactly, rugby is not football and that is becoming a game where the depth of the owners pockets is the main thing.

In order to get success, there needs to be a 'shop window' with teams that are secure and can attract the best players.

Beneath that there should be a development pathway for players to move up to the pro game.

Ideally based around a university and club level.

Beneath that a properly funded amateur level that is focused on bringing new players into the game and moving them on

 

[Deleted member 90256]

If they're going to do that, they'll have to probably separate from the RFU. I doubt it will help the Premier either as the issues beneath them are not at fault.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

A] They do need to give more money to the championship though.
B] Not sure why pumping all that money from the men's game into the ladies is good for men's rugby?

A] Why? for what benefit to either the RFU or the grassroots clubs?
B] It's not supposed to be, it's supposed to be good for women's rugby.

C] Why should the RFU subsidise the Championship, for which they (and English rugby as a whole) derives no benefit, but not subsidise PWC, for which they (and English rugby as a whole) do derive a benefit

 

[Deleted member 90256]

A] Why? for what benefit to either the RFU or the grassroots clubs?
B] It's not supposed to be, it's supposed to be good for women's rugby.

C] Why should the RFU subsidise the Championship, for which they (and English rugby as a whole) derives no benefit, but not subsidise PWC, for which they (and English rugby as a whole) do derive a benefit

Is that actually true? I didn't think Women's rugby was generating profit yet?

 

[Quel Carreleur]

Is what true?

 

[Deleted member 53362]

C] Why should the RFU subsidise the Championship, for which they (and English rugby as a whole) derives no benefit, but not subsidise PWC, for which they (and English rugby as a whole) do derive a benefit

So a strong second tier developing and supplying players to the top and international tiers while also being able to develop the grassroots teams around them is of no benefit to anyone?

Sorry have to disagree there, we have to stop thinking we are all in a competition with each other.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

So a strong second tier developing and supplying players to the top and international tiers while also being able to develop the grassroots teams around them is of no benefit to anyone?

Sorry have to disagree there, we have to stop thinking we are all in a competition with each other.

They do that for the benefit of the clubs, not the national side or the grassroots clubs.

100% agreed (and have said repeatedly) that we need to be collaborative, not combative - but that's for PRL; they're the ones at war with the Championship. RFU "merely" need some form of return on their investment (and bear in mind, they're still investing a lot more into the Champ than they'll see as a return).

Either way, I genuinely meant C] as a question, "Why should the RFU fund the Championship more than it currently does?" as opposed to taking a counter view of "the RFU shouldn't fund the Championship." I fully accept that I dragged myself into hyperbole.

Young players also go to ND1 and ND2 clubs, and to University teams - how much should the RFU give each of those?
RFU give the Champ £2M p.a. Why should they give £7M instead?
They give tonnes more to the Prem - for which they get player access, and ever increasing control over those players.

 

[Deleted member 90256]

Is what true?

That it's good for rugby? Like, has the push seen a profit?

 

[Deleted member 53362]

They do that for the benefit of the clubs, not the national side or the grassroots clubs.

100% agreed (and have said repeatedly) that we need to be collaborative, not combative - but that's for PRL; they're the ones at war with the Championship. RFU "merely" need some form of return on their investment (and bear in mind, they're still investing a lot more into the Champ than they'll see as a return).

Either way, I genuinely meant C] as a question, "Why should the RFU fund the Championship more than it currently does?" as opposed to taking a counter view of "the RFU shouldn't fund the Championship." I fully accept that I dragged myself into hyperbole.

Young players also go to ND1 and ND2 clubs, and to University teams - how much should the RFU give each of those?
RFU give the Champ £2M p.a. Why should they give £7M instead?
They give tonnes more to the Prem - for which they get player access, and ever increasing control over those players.

Sorry I'm not getting this return for investment thing. The RFU should help fund the championship clubs and the ND1 etc clubs because it's in rugby's best interest. I'm not saying paying players wages but certainly help fund or give grants to infrastructure projects like flood lights, pitches etc. my local championship club does loads for the grassroots clubs in the area, doesn't that help rugby grow talent, bring in new talent etc? It certainly does more to grow the game than change the bloody free kick laws.

 

[Flankers' paradise]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/gloucester-accounts-reveal-3-million-drop-in-turnover/
Although forecasts contained within the accounts suggest the club will be able to continue trading until June 30, 2026, at least, that is subject to reprofiling debt repayments on Gloucester's COVID loan to the Department of Culture, Media and Sport, securing additional funding – "which the directors are actively seeking" – and "the continued support of the club's sponsorship partners, bankers and shareholders".

As if to prove the point about funding...dreading to see Newcastle's

 

[TRF_Olyy]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/bath-rugby-turnover-breaks-20m-but-losses-increase/
Bath lost £3.68m last year despite increasing revenue to £20.82m

Castore kit deal looks shocking - going from 600k to 100k

Very lucky to have an owner like Bruce Craig - can tell it's a passion project and he's more than happy to throw money into the pit

 

[Seeker]

Are there any Premiership clubs actually making a profit?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think Saints are,
Tigers...were? But then pumped a load of money into grounds redevelopment so their books look worse than they are

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Doesn't uk sport invest in the grassroots clubs? Like I have seen a lot of local clubs investing in their infrastructure such as pitches and floodlights etc

It just sounds like people are wanting the RFU to find the championship teams as a pro entity.

Like what would the championship do with the extra money? Pay off players and to what end?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think Saints are,
Tigers...were? But then pumped a load of money into grounds redevelopment so their books look worse than they are

Yeah in hindsight it needed doing but that new stand was prob not worth it from a money pov

We also brought a lot of land around the club that was being sold for students accommodation until we put in a bid

 

[Deleted member 53362]

Are there any Premiership clubs actually making a profit?

Post COVID and post CVC I don't think any are.

Doesn't uk sport invest in the grassroots clubs? Like I have seen a lot of local clubs investing in their infrastructure such as pitches and floodlights etc

It just sounds like people are wanting the RFU to find the championship teams as a pro entity.

Like what would the championship do with the extra money? Pay off players and to what end?

Yeah that a fair point. Like I said before I wouldn't want them to just pay the players wages but grants etc to develop their grounds so they could apply for promotion etc wouldn't be a bad call? Regards UK sports I believe they do but there are many others chasing the same pot, would prefer there was a dedicated body that helped rugby with that like the RFU.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Piece in the Times today about the amount of Covid loans still outstanding from Prem clubs and unlikely to be repaid.

Whole picture is pretty grim.

 

[Rinkadink]

Why should the RFU subsidise the Championship,

Because the RFU invented the damn thing, kicked a load of perfectly functional clubs out of what was a larger league, and stated they'd turn the RFU Championship (to give it it's proper title) into a fully professional second tier.

The RFU then failed to find a major sponsor for the first three years of the RFU Championship's existence. The RFU failed to adequately provide decent structure having both relegation and promotion playoffs which were disastrous. The RFU has repeatedly cut funding to the Championship over the past decade. The RFU has absolutely failed to promote or grow their creation since it's inception, relying on the bigger clubs to prop the league's status up whilst giving them effectively nothing or even in some cases, hamstringing them.

That'll do for starters.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I know Government waste yada yada yada, but they should just cancel the loans - they know what a **** state the sport is in and in the grand scheme of things it's such a small amount of money, but devastating to the clubs

Can't read the full article but the first paragraph says it was £124m loans to the 13 clubs, but 3 don't exist anymore so gotta be like...£95m outstanding? Compared to the billions stolen by Tory cronies

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I know Government waste yada yada yada, but they should just cancel the loans - they know what a **** state the sport is in and in the grand scheme of things it's such a small amount of money, but devastating to the clubs

Can't read the full article but the first paragraph says it was £124m loans to the 13 clubs, but 3 don't exist anymore so gotta be like...£95m outstanding? Compared to the billions stolen by Tory cronies

It’s funny that this is the stance they want to take when as you say how much was stolen in contracts around the whole covid period by government friends

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I know Government waste yada yada yada, but they should just cancel the loans - they know what a **** state the sport is in and in the grand scheme of things it's such a small amount of money, but devastating to the clubs

Can't read the full article but the first paragraph says it was £124m loans to the 13 clubs, but 3 don't exist anymore so gotta be like...£95m outstanding? Compared to the billions stolen by Tory cronies

Wasps, Worcester and Irish £41m between them of which £29m irrecoverable.

Rugby received 57% of all Covid loans made by DCMS which is staggering.

Yes, in the overall scheme of things, the money’s small fry and some clubs and individuals have been badly hurt. But it’s also right to ask why these Covid loans are still supporting clubs 5 years on (and probably well into the future). Basic rule of debt is that you pay it back on agreed terms or suffer consequences.

The clubs are privately owned and run, in most cases spectacularly badly run, living way beyond their means by any sensible measure. That’s long been the case and as a taxpayer you have to wonder why any money was thrown at them in the first place.

Genge and his ilk should be very grateful to be paid what they are, which for the most part is totally unaffordable.

 

[Rinkadink]

for the most part is totally unaffordable

Yet at least 4 other competitions can afford to?

Weird how the professional game in this country is slowly being ground down. It wouldn't suit the RFU to have full control over their fodder for the international cash generating machine, would it?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yet at least 4 other competitions can afford to?

Which ones are they?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

But it's also right to ask why these Covid loans are still supporting clubs 5 years on (and probably well into the future).

Isn't it more the case that the loans stopped them going bankrupt while they had zero income, but they're not making enough to save the extra to recoup that now?

Realistically they borrowed too much and were too optimistic about the future of the sport, but the alternative was ceasing to exist so I guess I get why they did it

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Which ones are they?

Guess he means URC, Top 14, League 1 Japan and super rugby

BUT
URC are regions of what 4 per country nearly with no second league
Super rugby is again 4 or so teams per country no second league
League 1 Japan are owned by private companies
Top 14 ideal situation but we are not France and don;t have the same support base

I mean if you focus on the other league then we shouldn't have a championship at all.

 

[Deleted member 90256]

Because the RFU invented the damn thing, kicked a load of perfectly functional clubs out of what was a larger league, and stated they'd turn the RFU Championship (to give it it's proper ***le) into a fully professional second tier.

The RFU then failed to find a major sponsor for the first three years of the RFU Championship's existence. The RFU failed to adequately provide decent structure having both relegation and promotion playoffs which were disastrous. The RFU has repeatedly cut funding to the Championship over the past decade. The RFU has absolutely failed to promote or grow their creation since it's inception, relying on the bigger clubs to prop the league's status up whilst giving them effectively nothing or even in some cases, hamstringing them.

That'll do for starters.

This 100%. This the RFU's fault and all that supported their actions. The country is in a managed decline and nothing will be an exception to that including rugby. The prem spends millions and rarely brings a profit. That's the RFU and the clubs fault for over spending.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

IMO for a Championship to work you need the welsh regions to come in to boost it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Guess he means URC, Top 14, League 1 Japan and super rugby

BUT
URC are regions of what 4 per country nearly with no second league
Super rugby is again 4 or so teams per country no second league
League 1 Japan are owned by private companies
Top 14 ideal situation but we are not France and don;t have the same support base

I mean if you focus on the other league then we shouldn't have a championship at all.

URC and Super Rugby are bad examples, as well, considering Rebels just went under, Zebre just went under and the Welsh/Scottish sides are all losing money hand over fist (i'm guessing Munster and Leinster are OK but aren't Ulster in the ****? Not sure if Connacht just spend within their means or they're in trouble too)

Would be amazed if any Japanese side came close to breaking even, like you said: They've just got companies instead of sugar daddies picking up the tab

France is really the only "healthy" rugby economy - and that's kind of the issue, everyone is trying to play catch up to them
That said: supposedly a number of French clubs have pretty big debts/don't make a profit, as well - so again: sponsors and sugar daddies propping them up
https://www.planetrugby.com/news/bi...drastic-change-to-salary-cap-as-meeting-looms

 

[Deleted member 90256]

IMO for a Championship to work you need the welsh regions to come in to boost it.

I'm not against the idea, but I'm not sure who would fit into that model. I think for Wales the Super Rygbi Cymru is looking promising, so would they put the championship league in between the prem/URC as a half step?