English rugby clubs ‘heading for disaster’ after mounting £300m in debts

[TRF_Olyy]

It's gonna be interesting to see what happens with it - dropping it back down after one season is going to need a whole lot of caveats for existing contracts considering a lot of sides will instantly be 1.4m over the limit

Really it should've never gone back up - I'm guessing it's because (from what I remember about them from reports around COVID time) PRL votes have to be unanimous - so they all unanimously voted to drop the cap down for however many seasons, and then it'll go back up, and now that it's time to go back up only 7/10 (or whatever) don't want that so can't stop it

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

It’s gonna be rough. So many French teams bidding on English players will drive up the price of non-internationals. English teams can only have so many non-eu players. Don’t see how premiership will compete in Europe.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

They will make it to the quarters but prob the limit atm.

Are the french spending that much money on English players? I still feel it's not as bad as people say on the whole

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I still feel it's not as bad as people say on the whole

Yeah, same
Like realistically the biggest loss so far is Marchant, and he's rumoured to be moving back next season anyway

People are losing their minds over Ludlam and Sinckler when neither made the Six Nations squad anyway (Ludlam probably would've if he'd had time to prove fitness beforehand but is probably a squad player moving forwards and can be replaced be Pearson)

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

They will make it to the quarters but prob the limit atm.

Are the french spending that much money on English players? I still feel it's not as bad as people say on the whole

I think English clubs have been feeing the need to match offers.
It won’t be the big names that hurt it will be the second and third tier players who can get better contracts in France but are still cheaper than a similar French player.

That whole “best English players abroad” by rugby pass or whoever was essentially a list of good premiership players that aren’t going to make people lose their minds when they leave.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

But that’s kinda the circle of life isn’t it
2nd/3rd tier leaves and upcoming player replaces


Maybe before when it was 13 team league but with 10 it’s a not as bad
Marchant went and Joseph replaces

 

[Crash Hamster]

Yeah, same
Like realistically the biggest loss so far is Marchant, and he's rumoured to be moving back next season anyway

People are losing their minds over Ludlam and Sinckler when neither made the Six Nations squad anyway (Ludlam probably would've if he'd had time to prove fitness beforehand but is probably a squad player moving forwards and can be replaced be Pearson)

There are a lot of England-qualified players and we have no shortage in any position. In some positions, we have top notch international performers, in others it's 'good club/borderline international' players at best, but wherever the sharp end of the pyramid falls, there is no position where a player is irreplaceable with someone of similar ability.

We might lack world beating props of both persuasions and an IC, but there are players with lots of Premiership experience who could do a job; VRR and Nick Schonert, off the top of my head.

Bringing such players in may weaken the side (or they may step up and we may wonder why they weren't included sooner) but it's not as if we're Wales.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

Our misses are JWillis, Marchant and Arundel.
We've an embarrassment of riches in the backrow and wing, a few decent options at OC, where March looks like he's returning anyway.

All teams have journeymen imports, it would be churlish to complain about journeymen exports.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Our misses are JWillis, Marchant and Arundel.
We've an embarrassment of riches in the backrow and wing, a few decent options at OC, where March looks like he's returning anyway.

All teams have journeymen imports, it would be churlish to complain about journeymen exports.

Not sure that Arundell's trajectory was any different from IFW's... and Murley/Radwan would surely also be able to fill the hole. We seem to have picked Daly as a winger because we want to.

WIllis J. is undeniably an excellent player, but we could probably put out six or seven good-quality international back rows (assuming everyone is fit and available.)

Marchant isn't guaranteed to be selected, but would certainly be in the conversation.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

Not sure that Arundell's trajectory was any different from IFW's... and Murley/Radwan would surely also be able to fill the hole. We seem to have picked Daly as a winger because we want to.

WIllis J. is undeniably an excellent player, but we could probably put out six or seven good-quality international back rows (assuming everyone is fit and available.)

Marchant isn't guaranteed to be selected, but would certainly be in the conversation.

Oh, I didn't mean that any of the 3 I mentioned would be automatic picks for England; just that all 3 would be part of the conversation for wider squads. So in with a shot (not guaranteed) of being in our top 3-4ish for their positions.

JWillis would probably be behind Curry & Underhill, but part of the conversation behind them, along with the likes of Pearson, Pepper, Earl etc.
Marchant would be giving Slade and Lawrence a challenge for the OC berth, whilst Joseph, Dingwall and a few others* would be pressuring from behind (*including some of our up and coming "IC" options like Dingwall, Ojomoh, Kelly and Hartley, all of whom are at least as bilateral as Lawrence is).
Arundell would be challenging IFW and Freeman for starts, all of whom have looked to the manor born (and all of whom still have some work-ons), and I think a lot of us would put the likes of Murley, Radwan, Thorley etc in that same bracket, and some would include Cokanasiga in that rank as well). NB: I'm assuming that May, Watson and Daly are done at international level.

Behind them, and overseas, our best players are probably the Simmonds brothers, neither of whom are better than "might be useful if we were trying to put out a 5th XV without looking to youth".
Realistically, Sam would need Earl, Dombrandt, Mercer and TWillis all to be unavailable, for his departure to matter; and we ought to be looking for younger by the time we're that far down.
Joe would need Ford and both Smiths to be out before joining any conversations. Once there, then Farrell would be a miss, but he'd retired from international rugby before leaving the country, so shouldn't be part of this conversation.

Beyond that, we're looking at who? Jack Nowell? Ali Crossdale?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Here’s who I can see in the top 14 courtesy of all.rugby:

Stade Francais: Zack Henry, Joe Marchant.

Toulouse: Jack Willis

Racing 92: Junior Kpoku, Henry Arundell

La Rochelle: Jack Nowell

Bordeaux Begles: None

Toulon: Kieran Brookes, Jack Singleton, Dave Ribbans

Pau: Dan Robson, Joe Simmonds

Castres: None (well bar the dead to me Henry Thomas).

Perpignan: Ali Crossdale

Bayonne: None

Clermont: None

Lyon: Joel Kpoku

Montpellier: Harry Williams, Sam Simmonds

Oyonnax: None

In D2:

Harry Glynn, Myles Edwards, Harrison Obatoyinbo, Brett Heron, Pierce Phillips, Beau Farrance, Richard Barrington, Joe Maksymiw, Zak Farrance, Harry Sloan, Henry Purdy, Cam Dodson, Darrell Dyer,
George Worth, William Greatbanks, Alfie Petch, Charlie Matthews, Billy Searle, Jonathan Joseph, Zach Kibirige, Lewis Bean, Karl Wilkins, Toby Salmon & Will Witty.

I doubt that’s 100% but gives a flavour. Obviously some big names heading to France next year in Farrell, Manu, Lawes, Sinckler & Ludlam.

The England national team aren’t losing out too too badly, nonetheless we’d still be better for having Willis, Arundell and Marchant in the conversation, Farrell would be picked and the likes of Ludlam and Ribbans would at least be keeping other, probably better, players honest. No problem with those past their peak / never good enough / not good enough yet going to France to boost their bank accounts or further their rugby education.

 

[stus768]

Here's who I can see in the top 14 courtesy of all.rugby:

Stade Francais: Zack Henry, Joe Marchant.

Toulouse: Jack Willis

Racing 92: Junior Kpoku, Henry Arundell

La Rochelle: Jack Nowell

Bordeaux Begles: None

Toulon: Kieran Brookes, Jack Singleton, Dave Ribbans

Pau: Dan Robson, Joe Simmonds

Castres: None (well bar the dead to me Henry Thomas).

Perpignan: Ali Crossdale

Bayonne: None

Clermont: None

Lyon: Joel Kpoku

Montpellier: Harry Williams, Sam Simmonds

Oyonnax: None

In D2:

Harry Glynn, Myles Edwards, Harrison Obatoyinbo, Brett Heron, Pierce Phillips, Beau Farrance, Richard Barrington, Joe Maksymiw, Zak Farrance, Harry Sloan, Henry Purdy, Cam Dodson, Darrell Dyer,
George Worth, William Greatbanks, Alfie Petch, Charlie Matthews, Billy Searle, Jonathan Joseph, Zach Kibirige, Lewis Bean, Karl Wilkins, Toby Salmon & Will Witty.

I doubt that's 100% but gives a flavour. Obviously some big names heading to France next year in Farrell, Manu, Lawes, Sinckler & Ludlam.

The England national team aren't losing out too too badly, nonetheless we'd still be better for having Willis, Arundell and Marchant in the conversation, Farrell would be picked and the likes of Ludlam and Ribbans would at least be keeping other, probably better, players honest. No problem with those past their peak / never good enough / not good enough yet going to France to boost their bank accounts or further their rugby education.

Pro D2 must be taking in a lot of the journeymen players that used to head to prem. Could force prem teams to have strong pathways to develop their own players more?(Or do a Baxter and just take every young Welshman they can find).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ruck.co.uk are gonna copy/paste that post and give it the title THE SHOCKING LIST OF PLAYERS LOST TO ENGLAND

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/prom...cial-to-cornish-pirates-survival-warns-evans/
Grim reading

 

[Reiser99]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/prom...cial-to-cornish-pirates-survival-warns-evans/
Grim reading

Well if it's dependent on the RFU then they're ******.

 

[Deleted member 53362]

Coventry are 2nd in the championship and could possibly apply for promotion if they can agree a ground share with Coventry City but we all know it would never be accepted

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Coventry are 2nd in the championship and could possibly apply for promotion if they can agree a ground share with Coventry City but we all know it would never be accepted

I don’t see how clubs can survive without owning their own stadium and without the extra revenue that comes with being in the premiership. Can’t remember how long you have to wait for the funding but it makes it impossible to actually get up and survive.

 

[higgik]

The only way through this is franchises.
I know it is an anathema to lots, but there is not enough money in this country to have individual clubs fighting each other financially.
Ideally, PRL, CVC and RFU would set up a new league where 300-400 players were contracted to the league and 'franchised' out to the clubs for a given fee, just like the NFL.
The owners have to realise that working together to create a better product, will make them more money in the medium to long term.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If they were going to do franchising the time was when professionalism first came in - forcing it on the fans now would be a disaster

 

[higgik]

If they were going to do franchising the time was when professionalism first came in - forcing it on the fans now would be a disaster

Agree, but we are now seeing the downside of a football style system.
Everyone trying to outbid each other for players and borrowing or relying on sugar daddy owners.
Shame as the sport is the best sport to watch for the range of technical and entertainment it produces.

 

[Saintjay]

Agree, but we are now seeing the downside of a football style system.
Everyone trying to outbid each other for players and borrowing or relying on sugar daddy owners.
Shame as the sport is the best sport to watch for the range of technical and entertainment it produces.

Saints under the cap and relatively well run. How much would it cost to pay Saints to cover for others finacial issues.

Wasps, Worcester, Irish given no help but all of a sudden other clubs need bailing out

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

If they were going to do franchising the time was when professionalism first came in - forcing it on the fans now would be a disaster

Yeah I wouldn’t give a crap about English rugby if franchises came in

 

[stus768]

I don't see how clubs can survive without owning their own stadium and without the extra revenue that comes with being in the premiership. Can't remember how long you have to wait for the funding but it makes it impossible to actually get up and survive.

Don’t you have to buy prem shares to get full revenue? And relegated clubs are not required to sell them?
Surely should get rid of them.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Well if it's dependent on the RFU then they're ******.

That was my first reaction when I read Evans' statement. It sounds pretty far-fetched that after spending decades moaning about the RFU and their support for level 2, Evans would think that they will do his bidding within 2 years in order to make this "Sunset Plan" work.

Don't you have to buy prem shares to get full revenue? And relegated clubs are not required to sell them?
Surely should get rid of them.

That's my understanding and it makes the challenge of promotion even tougher than people give it credit for being. Not only do you need to build a Premiership quality squad and backroom on Championship money, but you also need to have a war chest to buy shares in order to get your income on a par with the sides that you're trying to compete with.

 

[higgik]

Don't you have to buy prem shares to get full revenue? And relegated clubs are not required to sell them?
Surely should get rid of them.

Agree, either no shares or have franchises.

What we have is nominal promotion but set up to keep the status quo.

My argument for franchises is that it is all above board, 'we are a closed shop and will invite teams that we think will add value to the league as a whole'.

At least it is honest, rather than pretending it is open but not in reality.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I could see franchises being set up in desired location once the league is stabilized and maybe at two professional divisions. American sports didn’t go straight to a franchise model (except for mls). It was survival of the fittest (still closed shop) until the Great Depression killed off all but the strongest clubs, then those clubs agreed to establish franchises in desirable cities.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

The only way through this is franchises.
I know it is an anathema to lots, but there is not enough money in this country to have individual clubs fighting each other financially.
Ideally, PRL, CVC and RFU would set up a new league where 300-400 players were contracted to the league and 'franchised' out to the clubs for a given fee, just like the NFL.
The owners have to realise that working together to create a better product, will make them more money in the medium to long term.

Thats kind of what we did in NZ...and im of the feeling its a huge contributor to professional rugby starting to fail in NZ, people dont have the connection to these new franchises....you kind of try too get behind them but its never the same as an actual local club...do the existing clubs die or do they just play in a semi pro/amateur comp? if they keep going then you'll probably keep following them to some degree so now your splitting your time and money...but now your old club is more **** and poor than it was before so thats not as much fun as before...and basically lots of people just give up...at most catch some highlights

 

[Quel Carreleur]

Thats kind of what we did in NZ...and im of the feeling its a huge contributor to professional rugby starting to fail in NZ, people dont have the connection to these new franchises....you kind of try too get behind them but its never the same as an actual local club...do the existing clubs die or do they just play in a semi pro/amateur comp? if they keep going then you'll probably keep following them to some degree so now your splitting your time and money...but now your old club is more **** and poor than it was before so thats not as much fun as before...and basically lots of people just give up...at most catch some highlights

Much the same as Wales and Scotland.
It's taken 25 years for the Irish to make a success of regions, and that (so I'm told) was with very definite, and well supported regional identities already in place in everyday life.
It feels like South Africa are the only ones to make a success of franchises - and that's because they didn't really go the franchise route, just put new names and logos onto the existing clubs.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

there is a fundamental issue with creating franchises...you are often asking fierce (two neighbouring clubs) rivals too support the same team

plus more superficial issues, what colour do you make the new greater Manchester or greater Liverpool football teams...it better not be red of blue...but if youve spent your entire live supporting a red team...its not each to jump on board the yellow bandwagon

you could do what the NZ franchised did an more or less align with the largest union....Highlander wear blue...so southland fans often dont care

 

[higgik]

Much the same as Wales and Scotland.
It's taken 25 years for the Irish to make a success of regions, and that (so I'm told) was with very definite, and well supported regional identities already in place in everyday life.
It feels like South Africa are the only ones to make a success of franchises - and that's because they didn't really go the franchise route, just put new names and logos onto the existing clubs.

The franchises do not need to be new, they can be existing clubs that are licensed to run a franchise.
In the NFL, new clubs were not created in areas where there were successful teams, just the ones not successful were left to wither.
New franchises are put in expanding markets, like Cornish Pirates or Doncaster Knights.