The Philosophy Thread

[Welsh Exile]

Was going to make this an atheist thread and branch out to moral philosophy but I thought I’d make it more broad so feel free to post anything about epistemology or anything philosophy related. I’m a big believer in children as young as 6 being made to study philosophy and critical thinking until they’re 18 as I think it would counter a lot of the problems we see today with how people analyse information and how they reach the conclusions they do. I’m sure this will go down like a lead balloon anyway but hey ho.

I’ll get us started with a classic thought experiment in moral philosophy and perhaps I will branch out into religion and atheism later.

I’m sure some of you may have heard of The Trolley Dilemma but for those that haven’t here’s a summary:

A runaway trolley is heading down a track towards five people who can’t move. You are standing next to a lever. If you do nothing, the trolley kills the five people. If you pull the lever, the trolley switches tracks, but there is one person on that track who will be killed instead.

Naturally the question is, is it right to pull the lever and sacrifice 1 person to save 5?

For those of you that say pull the lever to save the 5 there’s a follow up:

Imagine you are standing over a bridge next to a fat man. You know that if you push the fat man off the bridge he will stop the trolley killing 5 people, do you push the fat guy or not?

Unsurprisingly a lot of people who would pull the lever in scenario 1 will not be so comfortable pushing the fat man as it doesn’t feel right. Which then leads onto ethical emotivism and how really morality isn’t objective but rather just based off emotions.

Interesting, no?

I’ll get my coat.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

But what is a coat?

 

[Saintjay]

Fat or thin, that one person is getting it.

Currently reading a lot about time/gravity, black holes, white holes and Einstein-Rosen bridges. It makes my head hurt and feel more stupid than normal.

I'm fun at parties.

 

[Welsh Exile]

But what is a coat?

******* Jordan Peterson over here.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Fat or thin, that one person is getting it.

Currently reading a lot about time/gravity, black holes, white holes and Einstein-Rosen bridges. It makes my head hurt and feel more stupid than normal.

I'm fun at parties.

I thought you were going to say if that fat man was Adam Jones you would do it so I was getting ready to throw hands.

 

[BrokenWing]

Unsurprisingly a lot of people who would pull the lever in scenario 1 will not be so comfortable pushing the fat man as it doesn’t feel right. Which then leads onto ethical emotivism and how really morality isn’t objective but rather just based off emotions.

That’s because it’s hard to push fat people off bridges.

And if you screw it up, you’re then confronted with a fat angry man who you’ve just tried to push off a bridge.

The lever is impersonal isn’t it. It’s like being in a plane dropping bombs on stuff without seeing the pink, squishy things inside.

As opposed to being infantry and having to bayonet people.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

******* Jordan Peterson over here.

Literally the master debater and philosopher.

 

[Reiser99]

Was going to make this an atheist thread and branch out to moral philosophy but I thought I’d make it more broad so feel free to post anything about epistemology or anything philosophy related. I’m a big believer in children as young as 6 being made to study philosophy and critical thinking until they’re 18 as I think it would counter a lot of the problems we see today with how people analyse information and how they reach the conclusions they do. I’m sure this will go down like a lead balloon anyway but hey ho.

I’ll get us started with a classic thought experiment in moral philosophy and perhaps I will branch out into religion and atheism later.

I’m sure some of you may have heard of The Trolley Dilemma but for those that haven’t here’s a summary:

A runaway trolley is heading down a track towards five people who can’t move. You are standing next to a lever. If you do nothing, the trolley kills the five people. If you pull the lever, the trolley switches tracks, but there is one person on that track who will be killed instead.

Naturally the question is, is it right to pull the lever and sacrifice 1 person to save 5?

For those of you that say pull the lever to save the 5 there’s a follow up:

Imagine you are standing over a bridge next to a fat man. You know that if you push the fat man off the bridge he will stop the trolley killing 5 people, do you push the fat guy or not?

Unsurprisingly a lot of people who would pull the lever in scenario 1 will not be so comfortable pushing the fat man as it doesn’t feel right. Which then leads onto ethical emotivism and how really morality isn’t objective but rather just based off emotions.

Interesting, no?

I’ll get my coat.

You're clearly missing the right answer.

 

[Saintjay]

I thought you were going to say if that fat man was Adam Jones you would do it so I was getting ready to throw hands.

Is Adam Jones wearing a Tigers shirt?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I thought you were going to say if that fat man was Adam Jones you would do it so I was getting ready to throw hands.

Adam Jones would definitely stop the trolley though...

 

[Welsh Exile]

Adam Jones would definitely stop the trolley though...

Adam Jones is worth at least 1 million people I would say.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Love a bit of philosophy. I've always thought of the trolley question as one where you shouldn't pull the lever and let "nature" run it's course.

I'd push the fat guy though, because he's fat.

 

[dirty harry]

Fat or thin, that one person is getting it.

Currently reading a lot about time/gravity, black holes, white holes and Einstein-Rosen bridges. It makes my head hurt and feel more stupid than normal.

I'm fun at parties.

Tried that once, because of my degree i thought id naturally be able to take to things like cosmology and gravitational waves...

I gave up very quick, the realisation of my limitations and shame of lack of understanding hurt. A bit like standing next to an elderly man in the gym we all effectionetely call 'the hammer'. He must ben80 years old, carries himself like mr Burns, looks a little like him too, but noone is brave enough to change next to him. Hahaha

 

[dirty harry]

Im going to embarrass myself here, i came across the Trolley problem in uni, i was a much younger ignorant young man, not to mention the ego...

I stood up proudly in the class, and declared 'who gives a ****, a trolley is not going to seriously hurt 5 people, itll just bounce off the first' noone laughed, well notnout loud anyway. That was the end of my career in philosophy, before it even began.

The answer though to the trolley problem is simple, you save the side that contains the hot girl who offers the highest likely hood of sleeping with you as a thank you, if there are no hot girls you look for rich people, who as a thank you will sleep with you.

 

[BrokenWing]

Currently reading a lot about time/gravity, black holes, white holes and Einstein-Rosen bridges. It makes my head hurt and feel more stupid than normal.

Forget mysterious dark matter and the inexplicable accelerating expansion of the universe; the bicycle represents a far more embarrassing hole in the accomplishments of physics - Michael Brooks

We still don’t really know how bicycles stay upright.

 

[Reiser99]

We still don’t really know how bicycles stay upright.

Also how aspirin works.

 

[Scotty]

Literally the master debater and philosopher.

He still annoys the **** out of me

 

[Welsh Exile]

He still annoys the **** out of me

He seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth. He’s probably ill again or something.

Like you, I find him very frustrating to listen to when he’s discussing politics, sociology, theology and just about most things. However, he’s interesting to listen to when he’s speaking about what he actually knows a lot about, psychology. If he just stayed in his lane he’d be good or even just did a bit of philosophy stuff but alas, he has to stick his beak in everything from religion to gender studies.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I think the vast majority of people pull the lever but don’t push the fat man. I think in reality that’s what I would do (unless the fat man was wearing an England rugby shirt)

I think they even did some research on this where they looked at the brain MRI scans and saw the people who would pull the lever and push the fat man were psychos basically. I think those were the exact words they used in the study alongside a picture of @Saintjay

 

[Welsh Exile]

If someone was tied to a circular track but you could pull a lever to make the train go the other way how long would you pull the lever before you gave up and let the train run over the dude?

 

[BrokenWing]

Can I push a fat guy in the way?

 

[Saintjay]

I think the vast majority of people pull the lever but don’t push the fat man. I think in reality that’s what I would do (unless the fat man was wearing an England rugby shirt)

I think they even did some research on this where they looked at the brain MRI scans and saw the people who would pull the lever and push the fat man were psychos basically. I think those were the exact words they used in the study alongside a picture of @Saintjay

Right I'm confused now.

I'm either killing the one person on the track to save five or am i killing the fatty to save five. Or is it both a 2/5 deal.

What if the one on the tracks a fatty and the one on the bridge is skinny.

 

[BrokenWing]

I think the point is that you're deciding to kill someone and physically doing something about it, whereas if you do nothing you're sort of not responsible.

In the UK, you're not legally obliged to carry out first aid. However, if you start, you're legally obliged to not stop.

 

[Welsh Exile]

There’s definitely a difference between doing and allowing but ultimately most people just feel there way through it.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I think the point is that you're deciding to kill someone and physically doing something about it, whereas if you do nothing you're sort of not responsible.

In the UK, you're not legally obliged to carry out first aid. However, if you start, you're legally obliged to not stop.

Genuine question, if you saw a drunk person drowning in 2 foot of water and no one was around would you be arrested if you didn’t do anything? My gut says yes. Asking for a friend.

 

[Scotty]

If someone was tied to a circular track but you could pull a lever to make the train go the other way how long would you pull the lever before you gave up and let the train run over the dude?

I wouldn't pull the lever as its just making the inevitable longer for the person(assuming there wasn't a chance for someone to save them in this thought experiment)

Cause more fear for the man who will die anyway.

 

[Welsh Exile]

I wouldn't pull the lever as its just making the inevitable longer for the person(assuming there wasn't a chance for someone to save them in this thought experiment)

Cause more fear for the man who will die anyway.

You sound like the kinda guy to push a fat man to save 5 people. I respect it.

 

[BrokenWing]

Genuine question, if you saw a drunk person drowning in 2 foot of water and no one was around would you be arrested if you didn’t do anything? My gut says yes. Asking for a friend.

I wouldn't consider saving someone from drowing as first aid really.

However, CPR and the like is different. I do believe there are "good samaritan" rules in place.

 

[Scotty]

You sound like the kinda guy to push a fat man to save 5 people. I respect it.

2 very different situations, 1 pulling the lever doesnt save or change the amount of lives just give the person longer to wait in fear.

Not sure on the fat man. One likely wouldn't push him, id hide behind him so I didn't have to watch.

I like the doctor version.

A healthy man goes into a hospital and his 5 organs can save 5 people and with new technology there is zero risk but he doesnt concent...your a surgeon with a need who can sedate him and take the organs but he will die...do you do it?

 

[Scotty]