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South Africa vs England - 04/07/26

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England: Furbank; Feyi-Waboso, Freeman, Atkinson, Murley: F Smith, Van Poortvliet; Genge, George, Heyes, Coles, Martin, Chessum, Curry, Earl

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Obano, Opoku-Fordjour, Ewels, Pepper, Pollock, Mitchell, M Smith
 
No issue with Pollock being benched at the moment. Right call. For now.

But in among all the luxury player, flat track bully type comments the one thing I haven’t really seen is an acknowledgement that the game IS shifting to a much more attacking style that will massively suit him. Already happened in the carnage of the Prem and is increasingly happening at international level too. Teams are more often going at it from the start, it’s not just opening up in the last 20 mins. Shaun Edwards a while back put a number on it illustrating the defensive goal posts have now shifted as more points are simply being scored as teams become more ambitious.

Pollock’s 21 so of course he’s got loads to learn. But his basics aren’t at all bad and in a couple of years I think we’ll be looking at a genuine superstar whose skillset and attitude suit the evolving game perfectly. Once Borthwick's gone, anyway
FTFY
 
Mitchell on the bench ffs

Why does Borthwick stick with Mitchell and Ford only to change to smith and then drop Mitchell. Makes more sense to use the club combos.

But the real test is how they are allowed to play. Assume we kick everything and suck balls but I hope I’m wrong.

On pollock, I’ll say again, tigers fan doesn’t rate saints player…oh what a shock 😂
 
Mitchell on the bench ffs

Why does Borthwick stick with Mitchell and Ford only to change to smith and then drop Mitchell. Makes more sense to use the club combos.

But the real test is how they are allowed to play. Assume we kick everything and suck balls but I hope I’m wrong.

On pollock, I’ll say again, tigers fan doesn’t rate saints player…oh what a shock 😂
England and Springbok strategies — based on selection — could not be more different.

England goes with 4 locks, 6-2 bench, heavy defensive personal, and JVP at 9 for box kicks.

Springboks go with a mobile front row bench, pure gas at 9-10-15, and 5-3 bench.

This feels Uber-conservative from Borthwick.
 
No issue with Pollock being benched at the moment. Right call. For now.

But in among all the luxury player, flat track bully type comments the one thing I haven’t really seen is an acknowledgement that the game IS shifting to a much more attacking style that will massively suit him. Already happened in the carnage of the Prem and is increasingly happening at international level too. Teams are more often going at it from the start, it’s not just opening up in the last 20 mins. Shaun Edwards a while back put a number on it illustrating the defensive goal posts have now shifted as more points are simply being scored as teams become more ambitious.

Pollock’s 21 so of course he’s got loads to learn. But his basics aren’t at all bad and in a couple of years I think we’ll be looking at a genuine superstar whose skillset and attitude suit the evolving game perfectly.
I think he'll get there too for what its worth (top performing international) - maybe not exactly how we expect though, unfortunately the nature of the game is that he'll have to be lucky with injuries to maintain his mix of agility, speed and explosiveness season after season.

He only gets vaulted into these conversations because of his personality which I alluded to

I don't see the game ever straying from one that a players' floor is more important than their ceiling though and I'd expect a Josh Van Der Flier guaranteed 7/10 with low error count with the ability to put in 9/10 performances from time to time will always be a preferable pick to anyone capable of putting a 3/10 type performance in.

There's also very few examples of maverick youngsters not maturing, especially in the pack. Woki and Baird come to mind and they've both evened out their games.
 
England: Furbank; Feyi-Waboso, Freeman, Atkinson, Murley: F Smith, Van Poortvliet; Genge, George, Heyes, Coles, Martin, Chessum, Curry, Earl

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Obano, Opoku-Fordjour, Ewels, Pepper, Pollock, Mitchell, M Smith
We definitely have some dangerous runners in that background and I thing Furbank will make a difference being back in the team.

I did wonder if we'd see Furbank/Slade as emergancy 10 cover and have Slade at 23 allowing Freeman so slide out and finish on the wing.

I'm happy with the team though
 
England and Springbok strategies — based on selection — could not be more different.

England goes with 4 locks, 6-2 bench, heavy defensive personal, and JVP at 9 for box kicks.

Springboks go with a mobile front row bench, pure gas at 9-10-15, and 5-3 bench.

This feels Uber-conservative from Borthwick.
Thinking more, why wasn’t Ford picked at 10 with JVP?

If you want a set piece + kicking battle, why not go with Ford with Finn on the bench?

If England get down more than 10 points, does the bench have enough attacking power to get them back in it?
 
Mitchell on the bench ffs
You're assuming Marcus comes on at FH. I fully expect Fin and Mitchell to play together and the rest of the backline to look a mess.

Tbh, not the worst team from Borthwick. Still not sold on Freeman at 13. He's not bad, but I don’t think it's his best position yet.
Hooker is just a general concern because we are so dependent on George and LCD. If either get injured *cough LCD cough* then we're struggling again.
Feel we're also missing a heavy duty backrower. I assume Curry and Martin will go off at some point, then either Coles goes with Chessum moving to lock or Chessum goes. Either way, we end up with Pepper, Pollock and Earl together which seems too similar and lightweight.
 
No issue with Pollock being benched at the moment. Right call. For now.

But in among all the luxury player, flat track bully type comments the one thing I haven’t really seen is an acknowledgement that the game IS shifting to a much more attacking style that will massively suit him. Already happened in the carnage of the Prem and is increasingly happening at international level too. Teams are more often going at it from the start, it’s not just opening up in the last 20 mins. Shaun Edwards a while back put a number on it illustrating the defensive goal posts have now shifted as more points are simply being scored as teams become more ambitious.

Pollock’s 21 so of course he’s got loads to learn. But his basics aren’t at all bad and in a couple of years I think we’ll be looking at a genuine superstar whose skillset and attitude suit the evolving game perfectly.

Is the game actually shifting though? I feel most countries attack the same amount as they did a few years ago
 
Mitchell on the bench ffs

Why does Borthwick stick with Mitchell and Ford only to change to smith and then drop Mitchell. Makes more sense to use the club combos.

But the real test is how they are allowed to play. Assume we kick everything and suck balls but I hope I’m wrong.

On pollock, I’ll say again, tigers fan doesn’t rate saints player…oh what a shock 😂

Yeah I don’t see how JvP is above Mitchell (personally McParland is above JvP for me currently)

I rate Pollock he would be nailed on for my 23 just don’t think he should be starting
 
Freeman is a quality player and I’m not really against him moving to 13 in the long run but starting him at 13 against SA when he hasn’t started a game there since the 6N is genuine madness. If Borthwick wants a dangerous ball runner at 13 I’d rather have seen Litchfield brought along with Freeman at 14 so we could see the Saints 13-14-15 axis at play.

What I’d really have liked is for Marchant to have been selected. RFU set the precedent with Shields that a player can be selected before they’re playing in England as long as they’ve signed a deal to come over the following season.
 
Mitchell on the bench ffs

Why does Borthwick stick with Mitchell and Ford only to change to smith and then drop Mitchell. Makes more sense to use the club combos.

But the real test is how they are allowed to play. Assume we kick everything and suck balls but I hope I’m wrong.

On pollock, I’ll say again, tigers fan doesn’t rate saints player…oh what a shock 😂

Yeah I don’t see how JvP is above Mitchell (personally McParland is above JvP for me currently)

I rate Pollock he would be nailed on for my 23 just don’t think he should be starting

I agree on that as I don’t think he should be starting either. Brilliant player who never falls below a 7/10 game but he’s got lots to learn and is too similar to Earl and I’d rather have Earl at 8 right now.
 
I know Mitchell came on in the PREM final after McParland went off injured, but SB must not think he's had enough playing time after his injury to start
 
You're assuming Marcus comes on at FH. I fully expect Fin and Mitchell to play together and the rest of the backline to look a mess.

Tbh, not the worst team from Borthwick. Still not sold on Freeman at 13. He's not bad, but I don’t think it's his best position yet.
Hooker is just a general concern because we are so dependent on George and LCD. If either get injured *cough LCD cough* then we're struggling again.
Feel we're also missing a heavy duty backrower. I assume Curry and Martin will go off at some point, then either Coles goes with Chessum moving to lock or Chessum goes. Either way, we end up with Pepper, Pollock and Earl together which seems too similar and lightweight.
Thats one of my biggest concerns with the pack (outside of hooker) . Being forced to move Chessum there just highlights it more. I thought CCS might have finally been the answer but that seems to be failing miserably.
 
We've been extremely fortunate since about 2018 that Jamie George is 78% granite
I think we have to start Theo Dan in the next two games...purely to see what hes about. Whats the point having him in all the squads and not checking him out. Once and for all decide if hes actually worth the spot or we move on.
 
Much as I dislike Rassie's antics, there is a gulf in coaching ability between him and Borthwick. Rassie is always pushing the boundaries, trying novel things, testing law interpretations, experimenting etc. He's full of creative ideas. Borthwick is like a dementor for creativity, he saps it out of everyone around him. He seems to live off a spreadsheet with no feel for the game or new ideas.

I don't think England have bad players, god knows our population pool is one of the larger ones and our training and conditioning should be some of the best in the world. Where we are terrible is mentality and coaching. The last time an English side looked like they had real dog about them was in Jones first 2 years, we were a side you could never write off until the final whistle. I'd love to know how England were performed if they instead were coached in the South African system with the South African mentality. I'm sure they'd be doing way better.
 
Much as I dislike Rassie's antics, there is a gulf in coaching ability between him and Borthwick. Rassie is always pushing the boundaries, trying novel things, testing law interpretations, experimenting etc. He's full of creative ideas. Borthwick is like a dementor for creativity, he saps it out of everyone around him. He seems to live off a spreadsheet with no feel for the game or new ideas.

I don't think England have bad players, god knows our population pool is one of the larger ones and our training and conditioning should be some of the best in the world. Where we are terrible is mentality and coaching. The last time an English side looked like they had real dog about them was in Jones first 2 years, we were a side you could never write off until the final whistle. I'd love to know how England were performed if they instead were coached in the South African system with the South African mentality. I'm sure they'd be doing way better.
This comes back to the Premiership argument again. Is it a tough enough breeding ground to prepare players for International rugby.
Now many on here argue strongly that it IS good enough, but ive seen so many arguing that its not. That the defence is optional approach might entertain but doesnt win Test Matches .

Do our referees manage the specifics as per other countries.
Do our referees manage the breakdown the same as other countries. I dont think they do. Defensive teams are generally penalized in cases to allow the attacking side the ball (dont penalise players off their feet for one example) and to allow the game to flow. This (in my opinion) is a big issue when players then go up to International level and how often do we get a hiding in this area internationally.

I can go on but i wont. I do think the prem needs an overhaul in what the requirements of the international and European rugby are and work towards building teams and players who can move up and are ready to compete.
 
Seen Murley and George saying things like, "We have a clear gameplan and style and we just need to do it better." Or in other words "Boks are going to **** us up."
Even after JG said all the stuff said in pressers before the six nations was ********.

According to one pod the players get given the game plan on paper to read and study. So knowing to Steve it's clear because it's on laminated A4 paper with an appendix
 
Much as I dislike Rassie's antics, there is a gulf in coaching ability between him and Borthwick. Rassie is always pushing the boundaries, trying novel things, testing law interpretations, experimenting etc. He's full of creative ideas. Borthwick is like a dementor for creativity, he saps it out of everyone around him. He seems to live off a spreadsheet with no feel for the game or new ideas.

I don't think England have bad players, god knows our population pool is one of the larger ones and our training and conditioning should be some of the best in the world. Where we are terrible is mentality and coaching. The last time an English side looked like they had real dog about them was in Jones first 2 years, we were a side you could never write off until the final whistle. I'd love to know how England were performed if they instead were coached in the South African system with the South African mentality. I'm sure they'd be doing way better.
This comes back to the Premiership argument again. Is it a tough enough breeding ground to prepare players for International rugby.
Now many on here argue strongly that it IS good enough, but ive seen so many arguing that its not. That the defence is optional approach might entertain but doesnt win Test Matches .

Do our referees manage the specifics as per other countries.
Do our referees manage the breakdown the same as other countries. I dont think they do. Defensive teams are generally penalized in cases to allow the attacking side the ball (dont penalise players off their feet for one example) and to allow the game to flow. This (in my opinion) is a big issue when players then go up to International level and how often do we get a hiding in this area internationally.

I can go on but i wont. I do think the prem needs an overhaul in what the requirements of the international and European rugby are and work towards building teams and players who can move up and are ready to compete.

If the premiership doesn’t prepare players for international rugby how do you explain the foreign internationals that look fine but also play prem rugby, or the South African ones in Japan (who’s quality is way way lower than the prem) that go on fine for test matches.

It’s not that o don’t like the argument it just holds no ground at all. Bath can prepare Russell for Scotland and TDT for South Africa but we are saying that it doesn’t prepare pepper for test matches rugby?


It’s not the prem that’s the problem.
 

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