South Africa vs England - 04/07/26

[Geordie]

If the premiership doesn’t prepare players for international rugby how do you explain the foreign internationals that look fine but also play prem rugby, or the South African ones in Japan (who’s quality is way way lower than the prem) that go on fine for test matches.

It’s not that o don’t like the argument it just holds no ground at all. Bath can prepare Russell for Scotland and TDT for South Africa but we are saying that it doesn’t prepare pepper for test matches rugby?


It’s not the prem that’s the problem.

But they have come in to the premier AFTER developing elsewhere. They're hardened in other leagues and international rugby then come here and stand out in the league. No coincidence. BJVR another current one that could be listed.

I'm not saying the gap is huge I'm saying the techniques and the refereeing is slightly different but that slight difference can be pretty huge at international level.

 

[Scotty]

So is it only 2 players in the starting xv for SA are under 30. How many of them will be dropping off?(not saying they are at all) will anyone them be dropping off come the WC next year?

disclaimer before someone kicks off...Players over 30 are by no means past it or dropping off but some noticeably do.

I cant say ive watched any of them play club rugby in a few years tbh.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

But they have come in to the premier AFTER developing elsewhere. They're hardened in other leagues and international rugby then come here and stand out in the league.

Have another look at TdT"s history

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

So is it only 2 players in the starting xv for SA are under 30. How many of them will be dropping off?(not saying they are at all) will anyone them be dropping off come the WC next year?

disclaimer before someone kicks off...Players over 30 are by no means past it or dropping off but some noticeably do.

I cant say ive watched any of them play club rugby in a few years tbh.

Age is one thing, but so’s miles on the clock.

PSDT barely plays club rugby and looking at Etzebeth’s stats over the last few years he plays as much international rugby as club. And they’re not alone.

Apart from TDT, who’s now gone, I read that none of the 44 man Nonsense Championship squad are on the domestic treadmills of the English or French leagues.

If you think the success of the national team is the be all then it’s very hard to argue with the Boks and I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see their Dad’s Army waltz off with Bill again next year.

 

[Geordie]

Have another look at TdT"s history

I will...doesn't change my opinion the Prem is currently not a good testing ground for international rugby.

 

[Geordie]

Age is one thing, but so’s miles on the clock.

PSDT barely plays club rugby and looking at Etzebeth’s stats over the last few years he plays as much international rugby as club. And they’re not alone.

Apart from TDT, who’s now gone, I read that none of the 44 man Nonsense Championship squad are on the domestic treadmills of the English or French leagues.

If you think the success of the national team is the be all then it’s very hard to argue with the Boks and I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see their Dad’s Army waltz off with Bill again next year.

Not the be all and end all but I would still say it's the number one.

We all support our clubs but every club should be producing players ready for the National team

 

[Ddanno]

Not the be all and end all but I would still say it's the number one.

We all support our clubs but every club should be producing players ready for the National team

Bold of a Newcastle fan to come out with that

 

[Quel Carreleur]

Bold of a Newcastle fan to come out with that

Produced St Johnny, and retired, vixtorious

 

[unrated]

Have another look at TdT"s history

Not sure what you mean here, TdT came very well regarded from the Sharks, he was a leader in the team and a player considered not only a long term project but dead in to me a springbok regular, also pulling a lot of attention with his then weight. Before moving to the prem, he was in and around the Bok squad already. It seems he reached a very nice level at Bath, but I am not convinced yet he developed there that much until I see him play for the Sharks again next year for comparison before vs after Bath, for all we know he was just showing his already existing potential at Bath. I will say that sometimes these players can flourish from the structure provided by well run clubs. I have the perception that English clubs are run more professionally with what they have, while South African franchises are a bit mor gung ho, rely on the overall system working well in Springbok money feeding down and investment in the schooling system to produce players and then trying to keep them, if not then look for the youth pipeline to feed, or pick off the valuable scraps from the non franchise teams

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Have another look at TdT"s history

I will...doesn't change my opinion the Prem is currently not a good testing ground for international rugby.

What evidence do you have for that? England with decent coaching looks decent, we got to a World Cup final and then a semi. Since 2019 we’ve had some of the poor coaching for any international team and it’s showed but all the other internationals playing for other countries don’t suffer this fabled issue so what makes it true?

 

[Quel Carreleur]

I'm surprised that anyone doesn't consider moving from 26 year old "handful of bench appearances and not making the RWC squad" to 27 year old "beat prop in the world" isn't an improvement.
He came to Bath more as a reject that primed for the future (especially as he DID make the 2019 RWC).

I, surprised that anyone doesn't consider moving from "score as many tries as you'd expect for a prop" to "propping try scorer rsuperatar" isn't an improvement.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Prem =/= international rugby and he's been exactly what I describe at international.

Max Deegan is a cracking URC player, shows it all at that level, never made a dent in the international game - Pollock is better but needs to add something if he wants to be effective on his own.

Kane James is a cracking international player. Probably the best. Don’t let the fact that he’s never played international rugby detract anything away from my completely accurate statement.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

When Taulupe Faletau was a child he had a poster of Kane James on his bedroom wall.

 

[Geordie]

Bold of a Newcastle fan to come out with that

We've supplied a fair few in the past...and I would expect us to bring through loads of local players. Red Bull have even said that's a huge part of this project.

Not to mention the amount who come through the ranks then have left us and gone on to play international rugby. .

That won't be happening again....

 

[unrated]

I'm surprised that anyone doesn't consider moving from 26 year old "handful of bench appearances and not making the RWC squad" to 27 year old "beat prop in the world" isn't an improvement.
He came to Bath more as a reject that primed for the future (especially as he DID make the 2019 RWC).

I, surprised that anyone doesn't consider moving from "score as many tries as you'd expect for a prop" to "propping try scorer rsuperatar" isn't an improvement.

No it was not that he was bad it’s just that Frans Malherbe and Beast before Frans has been generational talent props, and it’s not that Thomas could not be a generational talent too, on the contrary I for one always expected it. He became captain at a young age at the Sharks.

but those guys that he was competing with were in their prime at the respective periods and with both having won a world cup each in a gameplan that relied on their scrumming. So its kind a bit tough to make the breakthrough.

Even the other side of the scrum was tough, Kitshoff for one.

Thomas is entering peak prop age now but he was not bad and no one considered him bad, on the contrary was very very highly rated while still here.

Sure he scores more tries at Bath but that could also just be how they use him, Boks and Sharks probably did not rely as much on him from a carrying capacity, he had another role to play.

Also back then he was mid transition trying to learn playing both sides of the scrum. Not saying he is not getting better, ofcourse I expect that especially as a prop who tends to improve with age, but we cannot say he turned into something else yet, rather his level has always been high and it’s just easier to stand out at Bath respectfully.

 

[Geordie]

I'm surprised that anyone doesn't consider moving from 26 year old "handful of bench appearances and not making the RWC squad" to 27 year old "beat prop in the world" isn't an improvement.
He came to Bath more as a reject that primed for the future (especially as he DID make the 2019 RWC).

I, surprised that anyone doesn't consider moving from "score as many tries as you'd expect for a prop" to "propping try scorer rsuperatar" isn't an improvement.

So a bench prop in SA suddenly is the bees knees in England...sats it all about the premier. You've literally agreed my argument...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Faf became the player he was (possibly still is, who knows what goes on in the Japanese leagues) in the Prem

 

[Geordie]

Faf became the player he was (possibly still is, who knows what goes on in the Japanese leagues) in the Prem

Built on a base developed elsewhere...and he learnt the different refereeing here.....

 

[Geordie]

What evidence do you have for that? England with decent coaching looks decent, we got to a World Cup final and then a semi. Since 2019 we’ve had some of the poor coaching for any international team and it’s showed but all the other internationals playing for other countries don’t suffer this fabled issue so what makes it true?

It's the way it's managed and refereed. Break downs are geared for the attackers rather than the defenders in international rugby.

Great for attacking games in the prem...awful for international level.

Defence/ tackling is criminally bad...hence why the centres haven't been trusted and we bring in BJVR...

But it goes deeper... we're producing athletic players geared for that game.

Where's our dominant physical players? I can think of two...Martin? Underhill? Both have major injury histories?
The only other two are the Willis Brothers ...and we know that crack...

Where's our Wiese, where's our Retalick and Whitlock or Bakkies and Matfield?

We had to rely on 3 "imports" most recently in Manu, Billy and Mako Vunipola...

Where's our De Allendes, or our Chelsin Kolbe who is as strong defensively as he is attacking (Waboso we're lucky to have as he's Welsh but a total sick note) . Where's powerhouse backs with pace and athleticism.

We produce a big powerful back and he has the mobility of an oil tanker (Steward) ....jeez...and similar Cokasaniga...

The prem needs to change...but that's just my personal opinion and clearly a few on here disagree...

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

What evidence do you have for that? England with decent coaching looks decent, we got to a World Cup final and then a semi. Since 2019 we’ve had some of the poor coaching for any international team and it’s showed but all the other internationals playing for other countries don’t suffer this fabled issue so what makes it true?

It's the way it's managed and refereed. Break downs are geared for the attackers rather than the defenders in international rugby.

Great for attacking games in the prem...awful for international level.

Defence/ tackling is criminally bad...hence why the centres haven't been trusted and we bring in BJVR...

But it goes deeper... we're producing athletic players geared for that game.

Where's our dominant physical players? I can think of two...Martin? Underhill? Both have major injury histories?
The only other two are the Willis Brothers ...and we know that crack...

Where's our Wiese, where's our Retalick and Whitlock or Bakkies and Matfield?

We had to rely on 3 "imports" most recently in Manu, Billy and Mako Vunipola...

Where's our De Allendes, or our Chelsin Kolbe who is as strong defensively as he is attacking (Waboso we're lucky to have as he's Welsh but a total sick note) . Where's powerhouse backs with pace and athleticism.

We produce a big powerful back and he has the mobility of an oil tanker (Steward) ....jeez...and similar Cokasaniga...

The prem needs to change...but that's just my personal opinion and clearly a few on here disagree...

I mean Freeman would be a better example of a powerful back. Steward is not powerful, he big and slowish.

You seem to be talking about style of players which again I disagree with. We’ve had plenty of big powerful players they’ve just been ignored by the England coaches since 2019 when a focus came on mobility for some reason, Attwood, lauchberry, Stooke and then mercer, Morgan at 8. The list goes on for powerful men but I agree the England set up has led the development of our prime players.

Look what jones did to Genge and coles where he asked them to slim down.

On defences in the prem being bad I’d love to see some sats about attack and defence for all the competitions as I don’t really have a view on that. Seen some big scores in different competitions but then with some teams sending B teams away it’s hard to judge a holistic view.

 

[Duct Tape]

SA front row too much, will become a scrum penalty-fest.

JVP (& Borthwick) will box kick us into a stupor by half. Willemse and Kolbe will benefit brilliantly.

46 - 15 Boks.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

SA front row too much, will become a scrum penalty-fest.

JVP (& Borthwick) will box kick us into a stupor by half. Willemse and Kolbe will benefit brilliantly.

46 - 15 Boks.

It's hard not to feel pretty negative about this one.

Altitude and travelling won't help, but even at Twickenham I wouldn't expect more than a semi-close loss.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It still makes me fume that it seems a coach who had only won a single premiership title and some 6n as assistant thinks he knows more than true world class coaching talent.

Why the hell are we so bad at being and retaining true top level coaching? It's infuriating.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Furbank out with appendicitis, no word yet who goes to 15

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Furbank out with appendicitis, no word yet who goes to 15

Smith at 15, Slade 23?

 

[Quel Carreleur]

It's hard not to feel pretty negative about this one.

Altitude and travelling won't help, but even at Twickenham I wouldn't expect more than a semi-close loss.

By far the least interesting match of the day - the only one where the result is a foregone conclusion

 

[Scotty]

Smith at 15, Slade 23?

Steward is injured isn't he? So yes that's what I'd go with.

 

[Scotty]

Whilst we arnt the favourites ffs why are we always so ******* negative. We have some great players and a pretty damn strong team even if they are much more experience.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

The Guardian saying M Smith most likely to replace Furbank with Slade coming on to the bench because of Steward’s ankle problem.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Smith at 15, Slade 23?

Much as I massively don’t like it it’s the only semi realistic option.

M might end up wishing he’d sat this one out. A long afternoon awaits.