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South Africa vs England - 04/07/26

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For me, I have 6 names
Short term to get us past the RWC
1. Cheika
2. Mitchell

Long term
1. Blackett (With full reins)
2. Vesty

Outsiders
1. Jamie Joseph
2. Shaun Edwards (IDK, would be interesting to see what he is like at head coach he was a very good head coach at Wasps IMO)
Good shouts. I don’t know if there would be a better short term WC pick than Cheika. I’m sure your Leicester bias played no part there. I’m not sure England fans want any more Leicester coaches though.
 
I keep thinking about Snarfs Bigpies early comment on taking the role - "we just weren't good at anything" and wondering how he feels now
“When I took over, I thought the team could do better”

“I was wrong”

Why are we even thinking Borthwick will get the chop. If the RFU “review” after the 6N thought he was doing alright, how’s one game against SA going to change that lazy non researched opinion?
 
His first line to the first press conference question was a belter. It’s like he’s taken a leaf out of former McLaren Team Principal Ron Dennis’ book.

Journo: “Steve, where do you think the game was won and lost today?”

Borthwick: “I think there were a couple of critical contest episodes, one of them clearly being in the air, where South Africa did well with their contestable kicking”

Every single interview is rehearsed nonsense. Doesn’t help himself IMO with that.
 
I know England should always be at the top, or at the very least aspiring to be the best, but SA are just different gravy and I’m not too sure if England can really do anything to get on that level. Maybe I’m being a bit harsh on some of their players. I like Martin, Chessum and many others and it’s not like they have no strength in depth but, yeah, what do you do against SA? I’m not sure really.
Yeah. Who would you really expect to take down the Boks at Ellis Park? There are only very few contenders who ‘might’ on their day and we’re not one of those.

Further mitigation is that our players are at the end of a long, in some cases very long, season.

However, ignoring coaching, on a straight man for man basis how many of our players would the Boks actually want? Not many and very few would be shoo ins for France or other top sides.

And for all SB’s many and various failings you can’t wholly lay this at his door. I read that we’ve had cards in our last 8 consecutive games. Looking at yesterday and the 6N only in the France game did we get a single card, we had 2 in all the others which has to be a coach killer and I don’t remember too many of them being smart ‘no choice, had to do it for the team’ type offences.

You can argue that not getting a grip on discipline is another SB failing and that’s true, but it’s more the players letting him and themselves down. But at the end of the day he’s paid to get results, they haven’t been coming and don’t look like they’re going to against the best teams.
 
Further mitigation is that our players are at the end of a long, in some cases very long, season.
One minor point - that reason can be used as a rationale against any of the other SH teams, but not against South Africa anymore. SA rugby players no longer have an off-season and play throughout the summer and winter season for internationals/TRC and the URC. There are now mandatory rest periods that Springbok players need to have in the URC season to try deal with this.
 
One minor point - that reason can be used as a rationale against any of the other SH teams, but not against South Africa anymore. SA rugby players no longer have an off-season and play throughout the summer and winter season for internationals/TRC and the URC. There are now mandatory rest periods that Springbok players need to have in the URC season to try deal with this.
Hey, you get no sympathy from me when whoever South Africa’s 54th choice TH is would walk into the Wales starting line up.
 
Yeah. Who would you really expect to take down the Boks at Ellis Park? There are only very few contenders who ‘might’ on their day and we’re not one of those.

Further mitigation is that our players are at the end of a long, in some cases very long, season.

However, ignoring coaching, on a straight man for man basis how many of our players would the Boks actually want? Not many and very few would be shoo ins for France or other top sides.

And for all SB’s many and various failings you can’t wholly lay this at his door. I read that we’ve had cards in our last 8 consecutive games. Looking at yesterday and the 6N only in the France game did we get a single card, we had 2 in all the others which has to be a coach killer and I don’t remember too many of them being smart ‘no choice, had to do it for the team’ type offences.

You can argue that not getting a grip on discipline is another SB failing and that’s true, but it’s more the players letting him and themselves down. But at the end of the day he’s paid to get results, they haven’t been coming and don’t look like they’re going to against the best teams.
Poor discipline is more likely to creep in when you have a team who are unsure of what they are doing.
 
Also when under pressure, which stems from not having a clear game plan or being able to execute it properly
I don't think coming under pressure against SA at Ellis Park can be entirely down to the game plan. Inability to execute possibly.
 
Good shouts. I don’t know if there would be a better short term WC pick than Cheika. I’m sure your Leicester bias played no part there. I’m not sure England fans want any more Leicester coaches though.
I mean, you look at his record, he always has success, generally just it can sometimes run it's course.
Proven record at International rugby with Aus and Argentina. Had an successful year with Leicester

Plays attacking rugby but also knows that you need to keep it tight.

I really don't get why Cheika isn't rated more highly in the rugby community
 
I mean, you look at his record, he always has success, generally just it can sometimes run it's course.
Proven record at International rugby with Aus and Argentina. Had an successful year with Leicester

Plays attacking rugby but also knows that you need to keep it tight.

I really don't get why Cheika isn't rated more highly in the rugby community
Incredibly charismatic as well. Basically the opposite of Borthwick in that regard.
 
I think we need to be scouting now for someone to take over after the WC. Good though they are I think Cheika, Rennie and Edwards time is coming to an end. Possibly even Rassie. For the next cycle we need new ideas and a new way of coaching.
 
Stuart Lancaster was interesting on Virgin Media. He said (before kick off) that continuous phases on the open side against SA was match over. Instead you had to keep switching from open to blind. He said that SA were incredible quick to fill the field in defence pulling a defender on the side not being attacked into the line. Forcing the SA defence to keep folding tires the big SA defence but also gives Finn Smith the opportunity to do damage with kicks. He also stated that SA are immense defending their own line and you need a plan to score within a few phases there. We saw this clearly after England recovered from the SA Blitz where the score for the last 29 minutes of the half was 0-14 to England with England on top.
SA needed to and did return to their traditional set piece game. They obviously identified the easiest ways and targets for penalties, knock ons etc and based their victory on that (Felix Jones). Needless to say England complied and never got out of that arm wrestle. If England could have got a 5-10 min stretch of switching play and territorial pressure they could have tired SA enough to make it close. England also failed to break the SA goal line defence, Finn Smiths offload which was knocked on being closest.
As England will likely only potentially meet SA in a RWC final he said a game based on movement is what will beat SA. He says you need the players for that. He was careful not to criticise but he did note that the lack of enough plays to realize the opportunities he mentioned apart from the George Martin try.
 
For me, I have 6 names
Short term to get us past the RWC
1. Cheika
2. Mitchell

Long term
1. Blackett (With full reins)
2. Vesty

Outsiders
1. Jamie Joseph
2. Shaun Edwards (IDK, would be interesting to see what he is like at head coach he was a very good head coach at Wasps IMO)
I'd throw Mike Catt into the mix too, and Dowson if he can be persuaded away from Saints and being Vesty with him.
 
Just listened to George’s interview and it’s rinse and repeat from the last 2 years pretty much: “young team… learn from this… poor discipline”.

Sick of hearing it. It’ll be 2030 and they’ll still be saying the same crap after woeful defeats.
Such a lame excuse as well because...is it a particularly young team? Like noticeably?

There's a smattering of <25yr old players but how many of those would you say are actually green?
Pepper, Smith and IFW have all been through three seasons worth of England squads
Pollock has two seasons plus a Lions tour
Atkinson the greenest, but still multiple camps including one tour as a starter

If we'd have started Sela and Caluori then yeah, maybe
 
I'd throw Mike Catt into the mix too, and Dowson if he can be persuaded away from Saints and being Vesty with him.
I just don't rate Dowson from a england POV same as I don't rate Baxter
Just strikes me as someone who is good from a club pov but not sure what he brings at international level

You need a head coach not a DOR
 
I just don't rate Dowson from a england POV same as I don't rate Baxter
Just strikes me as someone who is good from a club pov but not sure what he brings at international level

You need a head coach not a DOR
I'd put Baxter in my group of people who's time has passed. 5 or 6 years ago maybe he would have been a good call but the international game has moved on and we need an innovator
 
Just listened to George’s interview and it’s rinse and repeat from the last 2 years pretty much: “young team… learn from this… poor discipline”.

Sick of hearing it. It’ll be 2030 and they’ll still be saying the same crap after woeful defeats.
More like the last 6 years. How far we’ve fallen since 2019 is nothing short of disgraceful. I’ve had enough of it. Embarrassed in the 6 Nations year after year, record home defeats to Ireland and France, 1 win (by a point) in 6 games against Scotland. First ever losses to Fiji and Italy, a near-loss to Samoa in the last RWC, stuck around 5/6/7 in the World rankings, let one of the worst Wallaby sides ever score the most points than Australia have ever managed at Twickenham. How long have you got?. A new coach needs to come in and do what Lancaster did in 2012 and clear out the dead-wood, and there’s an awful lot of it. How many genuinely world class players do we have (and by that I mean players that would have a chance of getting in a World 15)?. I’ll tell you the answer, none. That’s an utterly embarrassing state of affairs for any England team. This decade so far has been far worse than the 7/8 years post 2003.

It’s about time we started acting like a serious rugby nation again and got rid of the comfortable, jobs for the boys mentality that has held English Rugby back for 20 years. Borthwick should go, now. He’s shown in nearly 4 years of being in the job that he’s never going to be the answer.
 
Why are we even thinking Borthwick will get the chop. If the RFU “review” after the 6N thought he was doing alright, how’s one game against SA going to change that lazy non researched opinion?
I think we're all posting more in hope than expectation. I'd be mighty surprised if he's offed before September '27. My money would be on Harrison leaving so Wiggler can coach the scrum and **** that up as well.
 
More like the last 6 years. How far we’ve fallen since 2019 is nothing short of disgraceful. I’ve had enough of it. Embarrassed in the 6 Nations year after year, record home defeats to Ireland and France, 1 win (by a point) in 6 games against Scotland. First ever losses to Fiji and Italy, a near-loss to Samoa in the last RWC, stuck around 5/6/7 in the World rankings, let one of the worst Wallaby sides ever score the most points than Australia have ever managed at Twickenham. How long have you got?. A new coach needs to come in and do what Lancaster did in 2012 and clear out the dead-wood, and there’s an awful lot of it. How many genuinely world class players do we have (and by that I mean players that would have a chance of getting in a World 15)?. I’ll tell you the answer, none. That’s an utterly embarrassing state of affairs for any England team. This decade so far has been far worse than the 7/8 years post 2003.

It’s about time we started acting like a serious rugby nation again and got rid of the comfortable, jobs for the boys mentality that has held English Rugby back for 20 years. Borthwick should go, now. He’s shown in nearly 4 years of being in the job that he’s never going to be the answer.
I could see England making another final next year, but agree with most of this.

The lack of success in the 6N is unacceptable.
 
I could see England making another final next year, but agree with most of this.

The lack of success in the 6N is unacceptable.
We have a favourable draw. They will go OK and Borthwick will get an extension. At this point the forum will explode

England fans need to accept all the RFU care about is building to world cups. The six nations is seen as side show and just part of a 4 year cycle.
 

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