Building what? A snowman in July?
-
Help Support The Rugby Forum :
South Africa vs England - 04/07/26
- Thread starter TRF_Olyy
- Start date
Help Support The Rugby Forum:
Wasps92
Bench Player
You’re absolutely spot on about the amount of dead wood. I posted on here after the Six Nations asking how many bad England teams and record defeats have the likes of Jamie George, Maro Itoje and Ellis Genge been apart of now? Genge has never been world class, whereas George and Itoje probably haven’t been at that level since 2019.
This incessant penchant for playing players out of position has to stop too.
I remember Borthwick saying we needed to stop the revolving door of centre partnerships… only for him to carry on bringing players in and jettisoning them.
Well if that’s the case then, they should drop the obscene ticket prices at Twickenham and then resign en masse. That sort of mentality should never be acceptable to the RFU or any England team. The sole ambition of the best resourced union in the World should be to create the best team in the world, nothing less. With all due respect, England being below Ireland and Scotland in the rankings is atrocious given the gulf in resources between the respective countries. We should be a consistent top 3 side and never outside of the top 5 at any time. Look at the mentality in NZ or SA, as rugby nations they never accept anything other than being the best - if you’re not the best, you’re out. The RFU need to stop fannying about and trying to be everybody’s friend - and start making ruthless, clinical decisions.
I agree but I don't feel it's to do with his age I just think he suits that style which IMO is the same as Dowson
Both Baxter and Dowson seem more like DOR's coaches who can build a good enviorment over a long term.
agreed.
I started watching rugby regularly in 2020 as a new COVID hobby. England not regularly being a dominant team was the most confusing part the more I learned about the sport.
Scotland/Wales/Ireland shouldn’t be close to England. Not even close.
Absolutely amazing that anyone would jettison Genge, Itoje and George
Didn't he move up to DOR.. that didn't work so he moved back to head coach and rebuilt the side and got to the final.
I think he'd be a good Head coach for England. Knows how to get the basics right in a team and then develop on that with attack coaches etc.
I thought he was still DOR at Exeter
ShropshireAllBlack
Academy Player
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2023
- Messages
- 387
- Reaction score
- 241
I’m an Irish rugby supporter living in England. People here have criticised the players and named a few that they consider to be less than International level. Some of those players were selected as test Lions just last year.
IMHO England hasn’t had a good enough coaching ticket since Lancaster & Faz were run out of Twickenham in 2015. Jones cycled through coaches as frequently as he changed his shirt and Borthwick has surrounded himself with acolytes. Anyone disagreeing or challenging either left the job fairly quickly.
However there isn’t a team in the world that could go to Ellis Park and challenge the Boks with any amount of confidence. So a knee jerk reaction now would fix nothing. Anyone who’s available 14 months out from a RWC is likely to be available for a reason. Meandering to Australia next year with the current setup is probably the best available option. But start planning the succession now, have the conversations, don’t just line up a head coach, but shortlist his team and have them locked down long before the RWC starts. I guarantee you that the serious countries know who will be leading them into RWC’31 already.
IMHO England hasn’t had a good enough coaching ticket since Lancaster & Faz were run out of Twickenham in 2015. Jones cycled through coaches as frequently as he changed his shirt and Borthwick has surrounded himself with acolytes. Anyone disagreeing or challenging either left the job fairly quickly.
However there isn’t a team in the world that could go to Ellis Park and challenge the Boks with any amount of confidence. So a knee jerk reaction now would fix nothing. Anyone who’s available 14 months out from a RWC is likely to be available for a reason. Meandering to Australia next year with the current setup is probably the best available option. But start planning the succession now, have the conversations, don’t just line up a head coach, but shortlist his team and have them locked down long before the RWC starts. I guarantee you that the serious countries know who will be leading them into RWC’31 already.
Ah he may be. I thought there'd been some movement and when things had gone off for a few seasons he moved back to head coach role (or maybe he's just taken on more coaching again) and things have turned around again.
I may be totally wrong of course.
Your forum handle is very misleading
Interesting seeing Mike Tindall saying its the structure thats hampering the side.
He name checked Slade as an example of why someone can be so Influential for Exeter and yet seems so ineffective for England.
It does make you think.
He name checked Slade as an example of why someone can be so Influential for Exeter and yet seems so ineffective for England.
It does make you think.
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2008
- Messages
- 100,026,357
- Reaction score
- 33,186
- City & State/Province
- Lichfield(ish), UK
Could be right (I mean it's what the fans have been saying for literally years, and is the reason Felix Jones quit), but Tindall is probably the second thickest c*nt on the podcast circuit so I wouldn't put much weight in anything he says (how's R365 coming along?)
Slade is definitely far more deserving of a run out next game than BJ is though - get Freeman back on the wing (I'd probably take him at 15 ahead of Marcus as well tbf)
Slade is definitely far more deserving of a run out next game than BJ is though - get Freeman back on the wing (I'd probably take him at 15 ahead of Marcus as well tbf)
Bit harsh on Ben Youngs
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2011
- Messages
- 6,205
- Reaction score
- 5,784
- City & State/Province
- Old Colwyn, North Wales.
Lancaster and Borthwick are perfect examples on the Peter principle.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2010
- Messages
- 23,870
- Reaction score
- 12,230
That's harsh on thick ***** grouping Tindall in there.
Feel like England are in a bit of a hard to win spot in world rugby to be honest. Playing numbers are grand but culture is the most important aspect of success in a sport and England are behind their biggest rivals there.
Soccer dwarves any other team sport in England as much you'll find anywhere on earth. The rugby team have to compete with France and South Africa with large populations where rugby is a genuine rival to soccer at worst as well as New Zealand where it's by far the most popular sport - all three of these will have far higher standard of coaching at every grass routes level just through general exposure to the sport and IP. I'm sure parts of England are like Ireland where you'll have dads coaching to help out who've never played the game because they played soccer (or gaelic games in Ireland) and just happened to move to an area with a big rugby club.
Because of how niche the sport is, all of a sudden it's easier for smaller countries with similar restraints to compete with England as both are primarily picking athletes that bit closer to the middle of the bell curve and the advantages of population get smaller because the outliers who could make a huge differences are grinding it out in the football pyramid somewhere or got into an olympic sport where GB have one of the best programmes on earth. This however should only really mean that good Ireland and generational Welsh/Scottish teams should be a match for them which hasn't been the case.
I think the problem is that the RFU haven't really copped this, they look at participation numbers and think they can vibe their way to the top. Resources, a golden era and great timing won England the 2003 world cup, only Australia and NZ had also figured out the pro game at that time, Australia were just past their peak and NZ hadn't hit theirs, it was a perfect storm and brilliantly executed but the landscape has changed and England haven't adapted.
It's hard to see what will enforce requisite change to be honest, it should have been Ireland beating them 4 times in a row from 04-07 but the 07 world cup papered cracks.
Their dispersion since 2003 has been 2nd best in the world to 7th or 8th I'd guess? It should really be 1 - 6 and 6 only acceptable if a golden era has faded out harshly.
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2011
- Messages
- 14,744
- Reaction score
- 11,800
I wouldn't say a reaction now would be knee-jerk, more long overdue. Knee jerk implies a sudden, impulsive decision making because of a bad outlier but the result against SA wasn't this, it was a continuation of a very long standing trend. Exactly the same problems were shown in that game as have been presented for the entirety of Borthwicks time as head coach. England playing well has vey much been the exception. England playing absolute dross has been the norm.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2010
- Messages
- 23,870
- Reaction score
- 12,230
Harsh grouping Lancaster with Borthwick imo, vastly different winning percentages and not fair to class Lancaster as incompetent. And the RFU have their fingers in the 2015 world cup due with the whole Burgess situation.
Saying that I do think Irish rugby fans overrate Lancaster, technically excellent but he's only going to get you 90% of the way there, I get the feeling he coddles his players a bit too much.
He'd do well as a backs/skills coach in Amy international set up for me though.
He did manage to get us dumped out of a home world cup in the group stages...
I agree about Tindall, but we do have to question why players are stand out for club in the prem and Europe and disappear at this level.
I think we have a mix of problems... A Coaching team whos not getting it across (possibly with Borthwicks direction) and a prem league that's not doing the business with regards the national team....hence why they're trying to move players around...Earl to 12, Freeman to 13 , Marcus to 15 etc etc...
Add in playing South Africa down there is just not an easy game (I'll be fascinated to see how Scotland do) and it all just doesn't look good.
Borthwicks there till the world cup so I guess we just have to wait and see.
Last edited:
Yeah he got the players to drop a ton of weight just in time for the world cup. Poor decision
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2011
- Messages
- 6,205
- Reaction score
- 5,784
- City & State/Province
- Old Colwyn, North Wales.
They are both competent coaches neither is an international head coach. Debatable if either are or were a great DOR / head coach at top club level either.
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2008
- Messages
- 100,026,357
- Reaction score
- 33,186
- City & State/Province
- Lichfield(ish), UK
The answer is clear, imo - it's the coaches and the gameplan
The telling thing is that all the media people who were drinking the kool aid before are now actually noticing
Latter points more to the former than the mid
Borthwick is massively out of his depth and grasping at things in the dark - Smith in the press saying he only wants to play 10, he's playing 10 for his club and actually playing pretty well despite Quins being in disarray,
Borthwick's spreadsheet tells him he should actually be playing fullback instead so that's what he tells him he has to be
I don't blame the clubs for Borthwick being the worst coach England has ever had
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2010
- Messages
- 23,870
- Reaction score
- 12,230
He did beat Fiji and I'd have backed him against Italy to be fair though.
Think it's a 4/10 coach vs a 1 / 10. Lancaster does have a European cup and multiple 4 win 6ns too
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2015
- Messages
- 10,916
- Reaction score
- 6,517
I do have a soft spot for Lancaster. He took over and really improved England to a consistent level, but couldn't find that extra few percent to become winners. Definitely comparing him to Borthwick is very harsh. I'd take Lancaster any day over Borthwick or Robinson. Night and day in what was achieved.
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2015
- Messages
- 10,916
- Reaction score
- 6,517
Nope, that would mean the RFU admitting they ****** up two world cup cycles in a row.
Zed
Bench Player
It's not a knee-jerk reaction though is it? That would be if England did well in the 6N, got thrashed by SA and sacked SB. They've now had a run of 5 losses plus a ton of other poor games before that e.g losing to Fiji. This is a team with an immense amount of resources. Dozens of coaching staff, medical staff, dieticians, psychologists, therapists. Millions of $ have been spent on developing this squad vs Fiji who have next to no resources, often go without being paid and on one infamous game against the All Blacks had to jump in the back of a truck to get to the game because the bus didn't turn up. Can you imagine the England lads doing that? They'd flat out refuse. England's performances under SB have not even been close to unacceptable. This is professional sports where performance and success is everything. Most other sports he would have got the boot years ago. It's bewildering he's still here.
As far as coaches go, England can't do much worse than SB. He may have abilities, knowledge and experience as a coach, but he has one fundamental flaw - a complete lack of accountability. His ego and arrogance prevents him from acknowledging his strategy, his tactics might actually be wrong. He cannot put his hand up and accept responsibility for England's failings and that usurps any good he may bring to the squad. You'd be better off with a less experienced coach, but one that has humility and a willingness to adapt when things don't go well.
Similar threads
Latest posts
-
-
2026.27 Season potential starting 15- Latest: LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)
-
-
-
-
-
