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Transfers 2014/15

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Juan Martin Hernandez to Toulon, starting Jan. He'll play for 6 months for the double champs and will then focus solely on the Pumas, says some French article.

Has been discussed before but...where the fk does HP fit in all that ?..
 
Juan Martin Hernandez to Toulon, starting Jan. He'll play for 6 months for the double champs and will then focus solely on the Pumas, says some French article.

Has been discussed before but...where the fk does HP fit in all that ?..

Replacing JOC who is off in December I presume.
 
Scarlets?
I was thinking Wales, too.
Could he go too Saints ? Especially during the international break.
Possible, but with Nutley and Dowson in the squad they've got decent enough depth - depends how cheap he comes.

It's hard to think of a side that's in need of an openside. Maybe he'll go to a championship side? Again, no idea of the backrow depth of any of the sides, but could see him making a move to someone like Bedford or Rotherham.
 
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Yes, he scored 4 tries for Sarries against Gloucester in May for the HAC
http://www.saracens.com/saracens-beat-gloucester-at-the-hac/

IMO, the best european back outside 6 Nations


oh shiit according to the vid title I thought some Tongan would kick some Romanian who in turn would beat the living fk out of him :p too bad, almost as good. Very nice break there. SUCH a fkng shame Georgia and Romania aren't more funded/looked after. If I'm a millionaire one day (God forbid...) that's the sort of thing I'd love to do with my money and insultingly huge amounts of free time. Pick one of those Tier 2 nations with strong potential and...well, this is the Transfers thread...
 
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So Boudjelol is keeping all those big names, eh? I appreciate Giteau being a class center adds a lot to the team but surely there is a lot of more-value-for-money wingers around than Habana though I am glad Habana is pocketing big money, don't get me wrong.

he must have a plan of sorts...he never just jumps into something. I'm guessing he wants to perpetuate that "family" environment for his players, prob. something along the lines of Habana now feels he's there to stay, will feel want to be more involvded, will commit more, will root firmly into Toulon as a whole...he just turned 31yo in June, will be 33 by 2016. I like that, he doesn't just throw away his toys. He buys them expensive and fancy, but he keeps them. Sure doesn't have to do this, could've kept Habana for that last contract year and then picked up some youthful Fijian supersonic missile anytime.
 
The thing is Toulon have created a very good team and are trying to keep it together. Having this core of players like Hayman, Botha, Lobbe, Giteau and Basta that has helped them win a league title and back to back HCups. The only worry I would have is that they would all get old together and they would have to rebuild a squad all over again, but i'm sure Laporte and Boudjellal have a lot of guys lined up to replace them.
 
they're definitely old, but will remedy this whenever it becomes a problem, you can be sure. They'll re-inject youth little by little, signing key players at important positions when need be. But they don't need that - *right now*. Habana still is a spear, Masoe still is a hammer, Hayman can still scrummage, STB still a great 9 in fact just got selected by France, Giteau isn't losing his level at all, both Armitages are the same...
 
Well Masoe has just come off an injury, but I would guess that Bruni will then over take him as the full time first choice. STB is only 29 so he is quite young really, though Kockott might go there at some point. Hayman should be replaced by Castro or Chiocci, it's really good to see alot of French guys to come through and start for them now. Saracens had the same label of mercenaries but now if you look at the team most are made by us and a lot of the England team are supplied by us. You will still get people say that they buy success and all that but labels stick around but the proof is on the team sheet.
 
Toulon alone have helped me understand that in sports you don't "buy success". Money helps, but you do not "buy success". How many teams have lost, been upset by much smaller teams. How many super teams, in all sports, have been assembled only to be defeated by themselves, i.e. their lack of chemistry ? It took me a while watching sports to really, really be convinced by that (money doesn't buy success), but scrutinizing Toulon and hating them just a couple of years ago has helped me understand that truth.
And the Saracens are a fantastic club that plays with excellent unison and chemistry, togetherness, a real team spirit. I don't give a shiit if there's a Burger or a bucket of boneless strips (fkkk it I'm hungry now because of your SHENANIGANS SAFFYCEN !!!!!...) on the team, international reinforcement is in part the name of the game today.
Saracens have NOTHING to apologize for.

Hayman is captain this year though Saffycen, and Castro has been out of form and Chiocci is a LH as you know.
 
I'm not sure how Toulon aren't the perfect example of buying success..

While in n Pro D2 they recruited Umaga, Sonny Bill Williams, Andrew Mehrtens, Anton Oliver, George Gregan, Victor Matfield and Matt Henjak.

Since then they were promoted and recruited Gavin Henson, Jerry Collins, George Smith, Luke Rooney, Paul Sackey, Simon Shaw, Johnny Wilkinson, Felipe Contepomi, Rory Lamont, Ramiro Pez, Carl Hayman, Bryan Habana, Matt Giteau, Martin Castrogeovani, Bakkies Botha, Craig Burden, Ali Williams, Steffon Armitage, Delon Armitage, Chris Masoe, Juan Martin Fernandez Lobbe, Juan Smith, Joe van Niekerk, James O'Connor, Matheiu Basteraud, David Smith, Maxime Mermoz, Rudi Wulf, Drew Mitchell, Leigh Halfpenny, Freddy Michelak, Mamuka Gorgodze, Juan Martin Hernandez, Gethin Jenkins and Andrew Sheridan.

I'm not sure of a finer example of sport where a team has simply just bought their way to success. You could say "but Nick, what about the years where Toulon were promoted and didn't win?". Well, the current loser of a French coach was Toulon's coach then. He's not been since their success. Money pretty much buys success. It's the reason why Manchester City started winning the Premier League. It's the reason why La Liga is generally won between Real Madrid and Barcelona. It's the reason why PSG wins Ligue 1 and why the team which most abuses the salary cap generally wins the NBA. Of course there are other factors, but generally speaking I think this "Toulon creates some kind of family environment" is total and utter BS. The owner is a nutter who happens to threaten his players, but has money coming out of his ass.
 
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The owner is a nutter who happens to threaten his players, but has money coming out of his ass.

TBF there are owners with much more money than he has (many, many multiple timesmore from some figures I have seen) he was just the first to go balls to the wall with the whole "sign every guy" procurement plan.
 
Racing Metro throw alot of money at their team and where ****e. Bristol throw money at their team and can't even get promoted, you need alot more than just money you need chemistry and a style of play that works for you. They brought alot of players and now have this core of guys they are trying to keep, i'm not saying that they haven't spent money but just because they spent the money doesn't mean they buy success as most of the french teams are the like that.
 
^It took about 6 years of ownership before Toulon won anything - Lorenzetti only started chucking cash at Racing about two years ago (?).
Bristol's owner has only been around in his current capacity since 2012.
Sarries SA owners came in in what...? 2008/9?
 
I see where some of you are coming from but money does not buy success but it certainly helps, PSA got Toulon promotion but it more or less stopped there,and they did not even qualify for the H Cup for a couple of seasons. Once you buy or sign the big name players you have to fit the unit together, unlike in football one player can score once which wins the game, in rugby, that just is not going to happen. Toulon have come together now as a very good team because of what happens behind the scenes and on the training pitch, everybody has a massive role to play, the guys who are never seen in the lime light, the guys who never see much credit for the job they do, and lots are voluntary. Firstly money will not get everyone in a team, some certainly, there has to be a whole lot of other equations before a player signs. At Toulon where PSA failed to win any silverware of significance, Laport has won already 3 massive trophies, and there is good reason that it may continue, unfortunately for the rest of us , buts thats life. At Montpellier i see the problems all time that we have with are foreigners when they arrive there are so many problems obviously the main one is the language, once that is mastered there are many more, and cultures are also very different, to get that unit into good working order, it take time and effort by many people. Money is a great asset but so many other things have to be in place before success is recognised.
 
Yeah gotta disagree that Toulon haven't bought success. Put a group if class players together for and hit their primes for long enough instead of journeymen filtering in and out and you'll inevitably have a class team. If Racing can hold a team of that standard, they will be class.
I think any team could build success in the circumstances and will in the future.
 
Racing Metro throw alot of money at their team and where ****e. Bristol throw money at their team and can't even get promoted, you need alot more than just money you need chemistry and a style of play that works for you. They brought alot of players and now have this core of guys they are trying to keep, i'm not saying that they haven't spent money but just because they spent the money doesn't mean they buy success as most of the french teams are the like that.

No French team is quite like that.

Obviously it takes more than paying players a lot of money for the team to be good. But you're kidding yourself if you don't look at those lists of names and see anything other than buying success. The total number of international caps Toulon's squad have is over 1,137. The most experienced test side ever named was the All Blacks which boasted 853 test caps. If Toulon wished they could put out a team (with everyone in the right positions) of 917 caps in the starting XV. Halfpenny is injured so they buy Hernandez. It's a joke. Their bench looks like most international starting teams..
 
Toulon, Racing Metro, Toulouse, Clermont, Stade all have similar budgets, though who knows if they stick too them. And the international caps thing kind of works, but you have players like Juan Smith, Giteau, Williams and Michalak who are all well past their best. That's close to 300 caps from players past their best, a lot of the team aren't current international status. Also signing Hernandez as a replacement for O'Connor is a joke ? Thought he would be on much less. Anyway the point i was trying to make is that why haven't Clermont won anything ? Toulouse look crap at the moment, Racing same and Stade didn't get the top 6. Yes they have a lot of players with international experience but they haven't got thhe world 15 by any stretch of the imagination.
 
the NBA is a fantastic landscape to prove the "money buys success" is very limited. Won't go into detail because it's a Rugby forum, but super teams have been assembled and have failed miserably.
Committed players and great coaching can knock money-towers down with ease, and this goes against me but just look at Munster smashing Toulouse last year, almost put 50 past them. You look at the two rosters, it's incomparable. Munster do amazingly well considering their roster - which isn't puny, mind you, but very humble compared to a Stade Toulousain.
If you look at the fact that Leinster for e.g. are basically the Irish national team, benefit from all the quality individually but also that chemistry and deeply engrained common culture, very good coaching - truth is Toulon had a ton of old guys and some French guys (of which only Bastareaud really world class) and won because of their commitment, team culture and hunger. They were nothing like Toulouse who would merely try to overpower their opponents and play it easy, like when they lost at home to Connacht, the worst Irish team last year during the H Cup pools.

Principles are good, but this is sports, it's business. Yes of course buying good players is going to help you, but there's a way to do it. There's a way to keep them once they're there, Wilko didn't stay all this time because of money, not his type. There's a way to know which player will do you good, as some of the world's best may not fit your roster, or the mindset you wish for. Boudjellal makes a point to interview and study up every guy he hires, coach or player or anyone. It was a gamble to use so many guys from abroad, whose cultures both Rugby and identity-wise were so different, were old, some called washed up. Juan Smith was broken and found a second wind in Toulon, a resurrection. Rossouw wasn't in vogue. Bastareaud was a train wreck before joining this new club. Craig Burden was a nobody before joining, they went to pick that unknown 3rd or 4th pick from some Saffer club, took the chance, that's one HECK of a gamble. They went to pick Menini from a dying Biarritz club, and he's now playing for France at loosehead. This year, they picked up Barcela whom New Zealanders will remember from that mid-2009 series we had in NZ, again from Biarritz. They've kept giant Carl Hayman who is now captain, although aging and not as dominant. You see, there's a real team culture.
Not to mention they've made Chiocci into a relevant prop, Bruni and Orioli are now respectable players at any level, all 3 pure Toulon products, Chilachava also the GEO prop a local product - and will supply 8 players (in 30) for France's training camp imminently.

Money is a big factor, and I'm certain Boudjellal is avoiding caps and limits somehow although everybody keeps saying that's impossible and everything is locked up and monitored...but there's much, much more.

Castres are in the bottom half budget wise in the Top 14, and they beat all the big teams all the way to the final in '13 and beat even Toulon there. They did the same again the following year (ended Clermont's invincible streak in the volcano on the way) and gave Toulon one heck of a war in the final, again, but lost this time. Castres had really good players too on paper, it's not like Toulon had anyone head and shoulders above Castres. Some could say Wilko because he scored all the points from the boot, and that was a difference maker...but otherwise, two very competitive, French-styled Top 14 clubs going at it for the Brennus.
Toulon didn't have 2 Lomus and Cullen, a 20yo Dan Carter, Galthié at 9, Jauzion and Conrad Smith, 3 Pococks and 2 Nicolas Mas as props...they had a mix of aging former stars, some pretty average players but really good coaching and a culture of excellence.
 
Toulon, Racing Metro, Toulouse, Clermont, Stade all have similar budgets, though who knows if they stick too them..

Unlike other countries there is official regulation of the finances of clubs in France and any irregularities mean demotion of at least and possibly two divisions. Happened to Bourgoin two years ago and twice Biarritz has had to seek emergency funding to avoid penalties. There is no doubt, in France anyway, that budgets are enforced in France!!
 

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