Transfers 2014/15

[FrenchFan]

lets not gloss over the great coaching work of Bernard Laporte (who speaks limited English) to mold his players into a TEAM playing for each other. To create a real team ethos. You can't buy that with money. Toulon produced oodles of it last season when the going got tough. They showed solidarity, cohesion, leadership. You don't get these with just a cheque book. Maybe if they win another double or a 3rd HCup, naysayers will stop the caricature as it's no longer relevant.

I sometimes wonder: how did Laporte do it?

how many coaches in NZ or elsewhere would succeed in same job at Toulon? I'd say not very many.

Laporte should have been nominated for best coach in Europe for his double last season.

contrast his success with Saint Andre's complete failure to do the same with a group of players from same country.

 

[ratsapprentice]

How can you enforce a budget? Unless you are talking about a minimum - which the clubs mentioned clearly don't need to worry about?

I'm lost.

I know that clubs need to make profits otherwise there are penalties, but I'm not sure what you're talking about other than that?

 

[Big Ewis]

lets not gloss over the great coaching work of Bernard Laporte (who speaks limited English) to mold his players into a TEAM playing for each other. To create a real team ethos. You can't buy that with money. Toulon produced oodles of it last season when the going got tough. They showed solidarity, cohesion, leadership. You don't get these with just a cheque book. Maybe if they win another double or a 3rd HCup, naysayers will stop the caricature as it's no longer relevant.

I sometimes wonder: how did Laporte do it?

how many coaches in NZ or elsewhere would succeed in same job at Toulon? I'd say not very many.

Laporte should have been nominated for best coach in Europe for his double last season.

contrast his success with Saint Andre's complete failure to do the same with a group of players from same country.

yep, not to forget coaches Mignoni (backs) and Delmas (fronts ? - ok, forwards) yelling on the sideline and looking like it's their own children out there playing every night. There's just a culture of excellence in Toulon where every single little aspect, detail - every inch in Rugby lore, every corner there is to know, every market there is to speculate; just all things, psychological or more concrete - are met. Everything is studied and made to be the most convenient and simple.

It took me time to understand this, as I was like many others before, completely ignorant of all such things in Toulon, unintelligently judging; much easier to just blame blame blame when a team is winning and from afar looks like all their success derives from a cheque book only. Much easier to point fingers and not try harder to consider the actual facts, sit down and really try to understand how they did it; a much more convenient shortcut to create a scapegoat, much less of a headache.

At the end of the day: you have a team, you buy a team, own a team, coach a team - TO WIN. They're playing within the rules (I think..) or at very least are not unique at all in what they do and do not possess so much (more) that it is strictly unthinkable for others to take them down and take what they have. They're the best club in France, the best club in Europe, possibly more; and that's all the other teams need to know. They need to put their heads down, and work, and maybe they'll be at Toulon's level and take what is currently theirs: the European Cup and the Brennus.

 

[nickdnz]

If I looked player v player Clermont have the best team and Toulouse is pretty close.

What...pretty clearly not.

I'm pretty clearly missing something here - as it would seem to me that anyone who knows ***** about rugby would look at that roster and see the a load of World XV players over the last five seasons bought and paid for.

 

[gaston le gaff]

How can you enforce a budget? Unless you are talking about a minimum - which the clubs mentioned clearly don't need to worry about?

I'm lost.

I know that clubs need to make profits otherwise there are penalties, but I'm not sure what you're talking about other than that?

What you are saying is actually not true, the clubs do not have to make a profit, they cannot be in the red, there is a big difference!!!! if they are in deficit then funds have to be found from other sources ie: the President or Sponsors parteners etc..At the end of the season the books must balance with no losses.If the DNGC control the club and the deficit is large they can be given a period of time to find the funding to repair the issue,( Biarritz last season) or if they cannot, they could be relegated 2 divisions or get a very hefty fine. Toulon is one club that is auto financed as announced by its Preident, Boudjellal on many occaisons, we at Montpellier are very near to it and hopefully will be by the end of the season. In France the auditing of rugby clubs is a very complexed affair, and if mistakes are made the consequences are normally very difficult for the clubs to overcome. (eg Montauban Bourgoin relegated 2 divs below) in recent years. The clubs are free to make their own budgets as big as they want but the salary cap remains the same for everyone 10 million €'s, but this includes everyone not just the players, also the academies, unless a different association is created. Thats it more or less in a nutshell and all this cars, employing families free meals, is absolute bull it does not happen, cars are provided for some players but they do publicity work for the companies or in many cases pay for them themselves. Our players lunch together 2/3 times a week it is taken out of their wages. Players are well paid thats for sure, but the rugby days do not last forever, but they are not that many freebies as some people think.

 

[TheSaffycen]

What...pretty clearly not.

I'm pretty clearly missing something here - as it would seem to me that anyone who knows ***** about rugby would look at that roster and see the a load of World XV players over the last five seasons bought and paid for.

Domingo v Chiocci/ Kayser v Burden/ Zirakashvili v Hayman/ Vahaamahina v Botha / Cudmore v Suta/ Chouly v Smith/ Lapandry v Armitage
/ Lee v Lobbe / Parra v Tillous-Borde/ James v Giteau/ Nalaga v Habana/ Fofana v O'Connor/ Davies v Basta/ Guilford v Mitchell/ Abendanon v Halfpenny
Their starting 15s up against each other and I would say that Clermonts is actually better. Also no need to be rude, it doesn't add to your argument or take away from mine.

 

[Big Ewis]

^ good post, but I'd definitely have Bastareaud over Davies, and as far as within the Top 14, Nalaga definitely above Habana. Also agree with your Tighthead assessment. And right now, not too sure Botha>Vahaa, and right now this very moment Camille Lopez is playing phenomenal Rugby at 10 for Clermont, while starting more than Brock James. Not saying he's better than Giteau, but he's way up there in the Top 3 flyhalves at the moment in the T14.

And yes please Saffycen stop being rude to ppl online you've never met. Says a lot about your character...shame on you !

 

[nickdnz]

Domingo v Chiocci/ Kayser v Burden/ Zirakashvili v Hayman/ Vahaamahina v Botha / Cudmore v Suta/ Chouly v Smith/ Lapandry v Armitage
/ Lee v Lobbe / Parra v Tillous-Borde/ James v Giteau/ Nalaga v Habana/ Fofana v O'Connor/ Davies v Basta/ Guilford v Mitchell/ Abendanon v Halfpenny
Their starting 15s up against each other and I would say that Clermonts is actually better. Also no need to be rude, it doesn't add to your argument or take away from mine.

Hayman isn't better than Zirakashvili huh...

I'd also take Burden over Kayser, Smith over Chouly, Mitchell 1000000x over Guildford. I think you're being very generous to many Clermont players.

As for my comment, I was making the point that Toulon's roster are filled with as many rugby players close to house hold names as possible. Not trying to imply you didn't know anything about rugby...

Regardless I believe Toulon's results support my assessment that they have the better players, particularly when you look at their depth.

 

[TheSaffycen]

A lot of the players are 50/50 calls, I would still have Kayser over Burden and Chouly is the form back row in the Top 14 at the moment, where as Smith tried to play against Argentina and was abysmal. Mitchell v Guilford...much of a muchness both pretty similar but the point I make is that the teams are closer player for player than what a lot of people say. I think the reason they have won so much is that they have a great coaching set up and they have built the environment that the players thrive in. You only have to watch the HCup 2013 final to see that they are more than a bunch of mercenaries

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Hayman isn't better than Zirakashvili huh...

Correct
It's not 2007 anymore

 

[nickdnz]

Correct
It's not 2007 anymore

I wasn't going off of 2007 form. Hayman has probably been the most solid TH in the Top 14 (hence why he's now captain of Toulon), and was great against South Africa recently. I'd still pick him over any TH..

 

[Big Ewis]

fk yeah, can Juan Smith do this ??!!!



No but seriously, Clermont captain Chouly is clearly a Top 5 third rower in the league atm.
You're exactly right on most of what you say Saffycen, but a much better example is (sadly ) the great Stade Toulousain. Officially by far the highest budget in the Top 14 (and in all world Rugby then de facto ?), and yes they've had major issues with a) the front row/scrum b) McAllister's mediocre goal kicking, but we're still talking about a club with Dusau, Nyanga, Doussain (the Toulouse Doussain), Fickou, Fritz, Poitrenaud, Médard, Gear, McAllister, Picamoles, Census Johnston, Steenkamp, Tolofua, Galan, Huget...
I'll take ultimate and certain commitment from ALL my players and state of the art, deeply conscientious coaching over big names any day of the week. And if I can have both ?? Well...well of course I'll take both. If I'm a quarter sensible. If I can have both, then my name is Rugby Club Toulonnais. Parce que Toulon. Because Toulon.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Don't be rude to Juan Smith. You're lucky there isn't a SA rugby fan near you. That said he was at his best 2007 RWC, player of the tournament in fact. 7 years on it's unfair to expect him to be a world beater still consistently.

 

[Big Ewis]

Don't be rude to Juan Smith. You're lucky there isn't a SA rugby fan near you. That said he was at his best 2007 RWC, player of the tournament in fact. 7 years on it's unfair to expect him to be a world beater still consistently.

not being rude to him at all, you know how I rate Juanne.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

not being rude to him at all, you know how I rate Juanne.

yeah, just teasing.

 

[Conal]

yeah, just teasing.

oh you flirt always teasing about those big springbok lads

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

oh you flirt always teasing about those big springbok lads

About that. Are we still 'big'? I mean, most nations now have guys probably larger than our own.

And if anything we have gone smaller, well in the backline at least:

Serfontein < J Fourie
JdV < F Steyn
Le Roux < Kirchner
Hendricks < JPP

 

[Big Ewis]

yeah, just teasing.

nothing about the JuanNE ?...ugh, disappointed..

About that. Are we still 'big'? I mean, most nations now have guys probably larger than our own.

And if anything we have gone smaller, well in the backline at least:

Serfontein < J Fourie
JdV < F Steyn
Le Roux < Kirchner
Hendricks < JPP

and yeah I see what you mean, but up front the Boks are still huge, no question. Not many backlines are huge yet around the world though. It'll come...
MASS !...*boom* aaaah-aaaaaah !!...

 

[Big Ewis]

Medical Joker for Michalak (injured for about 4 munfs) iiiiiiiiiiiizz ????...

That's right. Tony fuccking Woodcock.

Starts playing for Toulon on October 6th, right after that Southern Hemisphere annual party thing. Parce que Toulon.

 

[nickdnz]

Medical Joker for Michalak (injured for about 4 munfs) iiiiiiiiiiiizz ????...
T
hat's right. Tony fuccking Woodcock.

Starts playing for Toulon on October 6th, right after that Southern Hemisphere annual party thing. Parce que Toulon.

Seems unlikely since he's out for the season with injury and signed with the NZRU through to 2015. I don't see why they'd even let him take a sabbatical to France when he's being given time to get right (and will likely miss the EoYT to do so).

Nicolas Sanchez is an interesting pick up.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! **** ****! I was really hoping Sanchez would come to the Cape. Flyhalf is a sore spot for us and he'd have fit in perfectly seeing as he'd have been playing in blue and white hoops for WP and Stormers and our other international is also an Argentine. C'mon, WP selectors, step it up!!

 

[Amiga500]

Ronald Raaymakers from Counties Manukau to Ulster on a short-term deal to add some depth to our now paper thin 2nd row lineup.


Anyone give me any info on him? I gather he is the capt., but know nothing else.

 

[Darwin]

Ronald Raaymakers from Counties Manukau to Ulster on a short-term deal to add some depth to our now paper thin 2nd row lineup.


Anyone give me any info on him? I gather he is the capt., but know nothing else.

Raaymakers is a very handy pick-up in my opinion.

He not a star, but he is a good reliable player who gives his all every match. His biggest issue is his lack of height. He's listed at 1.93m (6'4), almost certainly making him the shortest lock in the NZ domestic rugby. Because of this lack of height he's never been given much of a chance at Super Rugby level. Despite his lack of height he is actually a handy operator at the front of the lineout at NPC level (not sure how he would go at higher levels though). He has a big work-rate - he hits plenty of breakdowns, makes a huge number of tackles (and is accurate on defense), and he is a willing ball runner (though not outstanding, he is probably better than the average lock with ball in hand). He has good leadership skills too.

I'm not sure what the Ulster side looks like, but if you pair him at lock with a strong lineout jumper and have a couple of good lineout options in the loose-forwards he could be a real asset.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Raaymakers himself is a good loose forward option too.

 

[Darwin]

Raaymakers himself is a good loose forward option too.

True. He hasn't played much there these last few years (as Counties have plenty of good loose forwards but no locks), but he does have experience at 6 (and it is probably the position he is best suited for physically).

 

[Peat]

I'm not sure he's the greatest fit from the sounds of it - he's coming in due to injuries to Tuohy and Henderson, both of whom brought real lineout athleticism - and what we've got left is Franco van der Merwe (good, obviously) and a pair of big heavy tighthead locks. Another jumper lock would have been ideal. But, beggars can't be choosers, and the work rate and carrying sound like a decent fit in a replacement at least. So, yeah, mixed news.

I'm slightly miffed to begin with that we're not using this as a chance to give the kids a go - but I suppose with the HEC games coming up, you can see why they went for it.

 

[Darwin]

I'm not sure he's the greatest fit from the sounds of it - he's coming in due to injuries to Tuohy and Henderson, both of whom brought real lineout athleticism - and what we've got left is Franco van der Merwe (good, obviously) and a pair of big heavy tighthead locks. Another jumper lock would have been ideal. But, beggars can't be choosers, and the work rate and carrying sound like a decent fit in a replacement at least. So, yeah, mixed news.

I'm slightly miffed to begin with that we're not using this as a chance to give the kids a go - but I suppose with the HEC games coming up, you can see why they went for it.

If Ulster were looking for an athletic LH lock he won't be a good fit as you suggest... he is more of an undersized TH lock....

Also......5 minutes ago he walked off the field with a suspected broken arm, which probably isn't ideal.....

 

[Peat]

If Ulster were looking for an athletic LH lock he won't be a good fit as you suggest... he is more of an undersized TH lock....

Also......5 minutes ago he walked off the field with a suspected broken arm, which probably isn't ideal.....

Well at least he gets injured like an Ulster lock :lol:

That's harsh. Suspect they'd have to cancel it, must be gutting to lose your shot like that - hope he's fine, but it doesn't sound like it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29508766

Tommy Bell has moved from Jersey to Tigers.
Great signing for Tigers, I'm a big big fan of his. He was excellent for us, and for Leeds, and I think following his brother to Wasps was a bad decision. He'd have been first choice (or at least rotating) fullback for us (Diamond specifically named him as one of the players he wants to build the future of the side around) whereas at Wasps he was behind several players and never got a chance to build any form, getting 10-15mins here and there.

 

[Patchey]

Great signing, although I suspect Tigers are going to shove him in the centres a bit seeing as that is where their injuries have really hit.

Can't quite believe he's only 21 still, travelled around a bit for a young 'un. Will be interested to see him if he plays against Quins.