Please World Rugby, ban the Haka

[Peat]

People singing at a rugby match???

What are you doing letting soccer fans into Twickenham?

What are you doing glamourising domestic violence? Eh? EH?!

This is as seriously as I can take this thread. I have half a bottle of Green Spot, it tastes delicious.

 

[dasNdanger]

Scots could wear kilts instead of warmup pants. Reply with pipes and a dance.

@jonny24 - like this?






das

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well, who isn't already over this discussion?

No one is against the opposing team challenging the haka (other than the IRB - money was even raised for France's challenge by a bunch of NZ's to pay the fine). I would much rather the opposing team was allowed to challenge it than the boorish Twikenham crowd of 80,000 just singing over the 23 rugby players..

My personal view is I have seen the haka enough times for me to never need to see it again. If foreign nations don't seem to want to respect the haka, then we may as well just not do it there. As far as I can tell, a majority of people enjoy the theater of the haka - so it's probably there to stay.


Having said that - the South African cricket team is called the Proteas after apartheid, why should the rugby team be called Springboks? Dumb as hell argument.

Lol!

You guys should excuse my ignorant brothers from SA. I for one love the Haka, and I don't care if it's challenged or not. It's part of the spectacle and I don't want it gone.

But yeah Nick, I'm over this thread, even before it began, lock it up and close it off... Nothing new to see here...

 

[goodNumber10]

I'm all for fixing our laws to ensure that challenges are allowed (I'm sure a lot of people would love to see it).

But for those advocating a ban, are we also going to do the same for Fiji, Tonga and Samoa? And if not, why not? And if yes, well - IMO that'd be a great shame. What next? Don't clap your hands cause someone will get offended.

The other countries aren't anywhere near as high profile so it's understandable that people focus on the most obvious and visual one. Secondly it's done very differently and in a way more organised and professional manner than say Fiji or Tonga, they are mic'ed and camerad up, the Haka is used for massive promotional factors by sponsors like Adidas and so on, and the huge amount of theatre behind it makes it a very different thing: at the moment.

Additionally Tonga and co are allowed to do their war dances against each other but not the All Blacks, no one is allowed to challenge the all blacks, it is not equal footing for all.

Anyone who's faced a Haka, be it in a game situation or just a gathering will tell you it most certainly does provide a stimulus to those doing it, I've been in front of one, just at a tournament and seeing 30 New Zealanders doing it (both men and women) was incredible. It just saturated the room in emotion and electricity it's a very powerful thing to face and 2 minutes before a games kick off it most certainly does provide a massive psychological boost.

Having played alongside former New Zealand Reps i can also say that in talking to them they loved the pumped feeling it gave them before the game kicked off.

I really don't think it should be banned, I do think it should be moved to before the anthems (all of them not just NZ) and I do think it has become a huge pastiche of itself in some ways.

I would much rather the opposing team was allowed to challenge it than the boorish Twikenham crowd of 80,000 just singing over the 23 rugby players..

The Haka is a historical and cultural reference point, was it always faced down in perfect silence? Was it mic'ed up and blared over the PA system? pretty sure it wasn't. I'm sure if it was just done rather than dressed up people wouldnt' care, but New Zealand have made this massive piece of theatre out of it, they can't expect everyone to just go along with what they want.

 

[inteNZity]

obviously we all love rugby or we wouldn't be on this site. its not played by many nations and has had times where if it wasn't for the traditions, the history and the diversity it wouldn't really have been that entertaining... Teams raise and fall, rivalries eb and flow as some teams dominate for a long period. its theatre on a paddock. its the hope that no matter what happened last week or the last 100 yrs we think that our 23 boys can beat your 23 boys. if people want to experience that without the haka, cool. but if I were Scottish or Irish or Argentinian or Samoan when the first time my team ever beats the All Blacks I want it to be after they have faced the haka. During the Haka I get just as much buzz from the look on Bakkies Botha's face as I do from that of Ma'a Nonu's cause I can see my that smirk Botha gets and the way he holds himself that he's crossed over into battle and he's going to cut loose, he's accepted the challenge and he cant wait. That's what the Haka is, that's what it brings to the game.

 

[Icemn]

I don't care if i'm going to get flack for this.

NZ Rugby have been getting away with this for too long.

I cannot believe that we live 14 years into the 21st Century and we still have men dancing before a rugby match.
I honestly don't have a problem with the maori culture. I really don't. However, there's no place for the haka or any war dance from the other nations in rugby.
The worst part is you're not even allowed to challenge the haka. Talk about having your cake and eating it. It's ridiculous.

If the haka absolutely must stay, then at the very least have it challenged. The All Blacks really get a charge out of being challenged.

Having said that.
The cricket team don't do the haka. Why should rugby still have it ?

Everything in life is cyclical, so i'm sure someone will have some sense at some point at World Rugby HQ to ban it. Nothing stays the same forever.
I can only hope it will be in my lifetime.

funny you should mention this...

one of my favourite movies is leon schusters' "Sweet 'n Short"...

i only managed to get this version on youtube as it is in another language...

please start watching from the 1:20 mark... if you do not want to watch the entire clip...

its really funny because if you were thinking about challenging the haka with this... rather not...

After watching this movie probably 100000000 times I remember some of the scripting (my signature also form the movie). After the ALL BLACKS perform the haka, the commentator says... "That was the All Blacks with the Haka, and now it is South Africa With The SHAKA" lol obviously to challenge the haka... quite hilarious




look at what AUS does here lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zwz5e82JWo


look at Ireland's response

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEsK7iZlmeM


anyways... the haka has surely come a long way... maybe you will appreciate it more after watching this LOL?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emJyEa4z2Ec

 

[Big Ewis]

look at what AUS does here lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zwz5e82JWo

yeah, that's the one where NZ put 50 on them or smt I think. That's my favorite one. I know my reaction as a France player would be to just warm up untroubled in my corner while the others form a chain or wtvr they want to do, unless coach were really badly against it. I'm here to play a game of Rugby, not enter a staring contest in masculine foolishness.

Being a man isn't how many beers you can down in one night, winning an arm wrestle at a bar once or how many girls you've fkd for the year; it's standing up to life's deepest challenges (e.g.: fighting through illness every day without complaining), knowing one's self (accepting flaws and seeing the hurtful truths as they are, facing them straight up no shortcuts whatsoever just the naked reality) and being so strong you can not only hold up for yourself but pick others on your shoulders also.

I want to make a Gene Wilder meme right now: "oh so you've stared at some dude for 40 seconds at a televised international fixture ? Tell me all about being a boss at life". Some of the "hardest men" in life couldn't tell their father they loved them, ever face the fact their child was born mentally retarded, love and care after their woman the way a real man does, or really only did body-building and adopted the tough man persona because they were that fragile and insecure inside.

 

[Tony Manx]

yeah, that's the one where NZ put 50 on them or smt I think. That's my favorite one. I know my reaction as a France player would be to just warm up untroubled in my corner while the others form a chain or wtvr they want to do, unless coach were really badly against it. I'm here to play a game of Rugby, not enter a staring contest in masculine foolishness.

Being a man isn't how many beers you can down in one night, winning an arm wrestle at a bar once or how many girls you've fkd for the year; it's standing up to life's deepest challenges (e.g.: fighting through illness every day without complaining), knowing one's self (accepting flaws and seeing the hurtful truths as they are, facing them straight up no shortcuts whatsoever just the naked reality) and being so strong you can not only hold up for yourself but pick others on your shoulders also.

I want to make a Gene Wilder meme right now: "oh so you've stared at some dude for 40 seconds at a televised international fixture ? Tell me all about being a boss at life". Some of the "hardest men" in life couldn't tell their father they loved them, ever face the fact their child was born mentally retarded, love and care after their woman the way a real man does, or really only did body-building and adopted the tough man persona because they were that fragile and insecure inside.

+1

 

[NamWarrior]

it's actually quite funny watching the white guys do the haka lol,

to take away any sort of psychological edge they should be made to do it before the anthems.

why do you think the home teams always have their national anthem 2nd?

whether or not it actually makes a difference is another story.

 

[William18]

The other countries aren't anywhere near as high profile so it's understandable that people focus on the most obvious and visual one. Secondly it's done very differently and in a way more organised and professional manner than say Fiji or Tonga, they are mic'ed and camerad up, the Haka is used for massive promotional factors by sponsors like Adidas and so on, and the huge amount of theatre behind it makes it a very different thing: at the moment.

Additionally Tonga and co are allowed to do their war dances against each other but not the All Blacks, no one is allowed to challenge the all blacks, it is not equal footing for all.

Anyone who's faced a Haka, be it in a game situation or just a gathering will tell you it most certainly does provide a stimulus to those doing it, I've been in front of one, just at a tournament and seeing 30 New Zealanders doing it (both men and women) was incredible. It just saturated the room in emotion and electricity it's a very powerful thing to face and 2 minutes before a games kick off it most certainly does provide a massive psychological boost.

Having played alongside former New Zealand Reps i can also say that in talking to them they loved the pumped feeling it gave them before the game kicked off.

I really don't think it should be banned, I do think it should be moved to before the anthems (all of them not just NZ) and I do think it has become a huge pastiche of itself in some ways.



The Haka is a historical and cultural reference point, was it always faced down in perfect silence? Was it mic'ed up and blared over the PA system? pretty sure it wasn't. I'm sure if it was just done rather than dressed up people wouldnt' care, but New Zealand have made this massive piece of theatre out of it, they can't expect everyone to just go along with what they want.

Well that's just a load of crap. Tonga did the Sipi Tau against us in 2011. There is no rule that says "No one can challenge the All Blacks." Any team can, most just choose not to. Some are still not happy with this arrangement and that is fine. However, the haka and the All Blacks have always been challengeable.

I would vastly, vastly prefer that we did not have to sing a National Anthem which is nothing short of a disgrace and which represents no one.

 

[Mikel92]

The other countries aren't anywhere near as high profile so it's understandable that people focus on the most obvious and visual one. Secondly it's done very differently and in a way more organised and professional manner than say Fiji or Tonga, they are mic'ed and camerad up, the Haka is used for massive promotional factors by sponsors like Adidas and so on, and the huge amount of theatre behind it makes it a very different thing: at the moment.

Additionally Tonga and co are allowed to do their war dances against each other but not the All Blacks, no one is allowed to challenge the all blacks, it is not equal footing for all.

Anyone who's faced a Haka, be it in a game situation or just a gathering will tell you it most certainly does provide a stimulus to those doing it, I've been in front of one, just at a tournament and seeing 30 New Zealanders doing it (both men and women) was incredible. It just saturated the room in emotion and electricity it's a very powerful thing to face and 2 minutes before a games kick off it most certainly does provide a massive psychological boost.

Having played alongside former New Zealand Reps i can also say that in talking to them they loved the pumped feeling it gave them before the game kicked off.

I really don't think it should be banned, I do think it should be moved to before the anthems (all of them not just NZ) and I do think it has become a huge pastiche of itself in some ways.



The Haka is a historical and cultural reference point, was it always faced down in perfect silence? Was it mic'ed up and blared over the PA system? pretty sure it wasn't. I'm sure if it was just done rather than dressed up people wouldnt' care, but New Zealand have made this massive piece of theatre out of it, they can't expect everyone to just go along with what they want.

I agree with most of this, but I don't think the commercialization (which there is sadly) and theatre of a haka is the standard of which to ban it. The genie is out of the bottle now, and in this day and age I don't think we'll see that changed.

You're right, they do hone in on the high profile team to make the point. But this argument is never really consistent. They don't want to be seen as a bunch of sad sacks taking away the little guy's haka, so they focus on New Zealand who happen to be good. People aren't stupid, they can see right through that. There's a fine line between a genuine discussion about alterations to the haka, challenges, it's placement, cutting back on it ... and trying to cancel the All Blacks identity because they don't like them winning. People who fall into the latter category usually don't understand what the haka represents either. From what I've read, there is a lot of discontent about teams having to just stand there and take it because of Nazi IRB rules of late. I totally understand/sympathize and agree with that sentiment. Teams like England should be able to do what they bloody like. Especially if it's at Twickenham - it's their land, their shores, and the ABs are guests.

Tonga have done the haka to New Zealand. Before, after and simultaneously. I suspect next year if this much debated test in Apia between the ABs and Samoa goes ahead we'll see NZ do their thing, then Samoa have the last say with their haka. Given Samoa is the home team, that'd be my expectation.

 

[thechosenfamily]

Scots could wear kilts instead of warmup pants. Reply with pipes and a dance.

With the added response from "Braveheart\Carry on up the Kyber of the hem lift to finish

 

[goodNumber10]

Well that's just a load of crap.

calm down, not need to be like that,

Tonga did the Sipi Tau against us in 2011. There is no rule that says "No one can challenge the All Blacks." Any team can, most just choose not to. Some are still not happy with this arrangement and that is fine. However, the haka and the All Blacks have always been challengeable.

Yes, but only if it's in a way the NZRFU deem appropriate which pretty much makes everything null and void - hence the whole craploa in the shed, and the constant whinging at England fans singing over it.

I would vastly, vastly prefer that we did not have to sing a National Anthem which is nothing short of a disgrace and which represents no one.

Fine, then do the Haka and let the other team have their anthem.

I agree with most of this, but I don't think the commercialization (which there is sadly) and theatre of a haka is the standard of which to ban it. The genie is out of the bottle now, and in this day and age I don't think we'll see that changed.

You're right, they do hone in on the high profile team to make the point. But this argument is never really consistent. They don't want to be seen as a bunch of sad sacks taking away the little guy's haka, so they focus on New Zealand who happen to be good. People aren't stupid, they can see right through that. There's a fine line between a genuine discussion about alterations to the haka, challenges, it's placement, cutting back on it ... and trying to cancel the All Blacks identity because they don't like them winning. People who fall into the latter category usually don't understand what the haka represents either. From what I've read, there is a lot of discontent about teams having to just stand there and take it because of Nazi IRB rules of late. I totally understand/sympathize and agree with that sentiment. Teams like England should be able to do what they bloody like.

Tonga have done the haka to New Zealand. Before, after and simultaneously. I suspect next year if this much debated test in Apia between the ABs and Samoa goes ahead we'll see NZ do their thing, then Samoa have the last say with their haka. Given Samoa is the home team, that'd be my expectation.

yeah, i don't think it should be banned at all. I don't enjoy it anymore because it's over saturated and i tend to not watch it, but it fascinates people outside of the sport, my four year old recognises it as part of rugby as much as he does a scrum - and that's a good thing it draws people in. If i went to an all black game though i'd be dissappointed to not see it, and so would my son - i think tradition in Rugby is important no matter how flamboyant and camp it has become it should stay.

I just think the placement of it is poor, and i think it's unfair and disrespectful that it takes priority over the home nations Anthem.

 

[Mikel92]

I have to admit, it doesn't really give me goose bumps any more which is a shame, because as you say, the over saturation. Although Kapa o Pango still has it's moments lord knows we need it after our lack luster anthem.

 

[William18]

calm down, not need to be like that,



Yes, but only if it's in a way the NZRFU deem appropriate which pretty much makes everything null and void - hence the whole craploa in the shed, and the constant whinging at England fans singing over it.



Fine, then do the Haka and let the other team have their anthem.



yeah, i don't think it should be banned at all. I don't enjoy it anymore because it's over saturated and i tend to not watch it, but it fascinates people outside of the sport, my four year old recognises it as part of rugby as much as he does a scrum - and that's a good thing it draws people in. If i went to an all black game though i'd be dissappointed to not see it, and so would my son - i think tradition in Rugby is important no matter how flamboyant and camp it has become it should stay.

I just think the placement of it is poor, and i think it's unfair and disrespectful that it takes priority over the home nations Anthem.

Well, I should have said "it was factually incorrect." You said you are not allowed to challenge the haka- that is just wrong. Most New Zealanders don't give up a crap who sings over the haka (the NZRU have never made a statement on it?). I have already said I didn't think doing it in the shed was the right response but that doesn't stop teams responding. Teams can respond how they like and we will do the haka in the shed. Us doing the haka in the shed is simply us responding to the response. It looks silly and petty but it is something we should be allowed to do and does not stop teams from responding to the haka. Also again the NZRU had nothing to do with that decision as far as I know.

Once again, the NZRU has never lobbied to make it illegal to advance the haka. This was set in place by World Rugby. The All Blacks will also be fined if we advance on any other side when doing the haka. World Rugby obviously decided to seperate the teams because they did not want the haka to turn into conflict. Once again if you are referring to the Cockerill incident or the French incident, most New Zealanders thought it was great. Hewitt said he took no offence to the incident.

 

[thechosenfamily]

Don't ban it IMHO as I think it is a part of world rugby and I enjoy it immensely

What needs to change is the precious attitude taken towards it by New Zealand RU and some players.

I have made this point elsewhere and the reason the supporters sing over it now is that NZ got so picky about what was or was not disrespectful that England's team just stood there and the crowd decided to get involved.

 

[Big Ewis]

Don't ban it IMHO as I think it is a part of world rugby and I enjoy it immensely

What needs to change is the precious attitude taken towards it by New Zealand RU and some players.

I have made this point elsewhere and the reason the supporters sing over it now is that NZ got so picky about what was or was not disrespectful that England's team just stood there and the crowd decided to get involved.

yeah but crowd singing over it is ridiculous all the same. It's one of those situations where something unfair is occurring and to retaliate you do something equally unfair, and it's complicated, a big mess, and you find yourself doing something silly in the end that's not intelligent or redeeming.
These guys come in, do the haka; as a player you have to stand there and watch, possibly farting (provided they hear you or the cam catches it) gets you in jail or at least a heavy monetary sanction; but then if a crowd of 83 billion sings over 20 dudes in short shorts ehhh, you're not exactly replying in kind or in a way that is even in the most bizarre universe "fair".
I'd imagine 20 dudes doing a performance, and I just play Cannibal Corpse at 300dB just to, ooh, show my presence...very big, much intimidating...you may not agree with the haka but doing something so utterly stupid in turn doesn't fix the situation or add anything valuable. Plus it's a complete sheep herd mentality instance where the people don't think twice and hear chants nearby and join in by yelling, just because, "we have to defend our house, yay", well done.. which I find the opposite of noble and intelligent or just the right thing to do whatsoever.

 

[goodNumber10]

You said you are not allowed to challenge the haka- that is just wrong. Most New Zealanders don't give up a crap who sings over the haka (the NZRU have never made a statement on it?). I have already said I didn't think doing it in the shed was the right response but that doesn't stop teams responding. Teams can respond how they like and we will do the haka in the shed. Us doing the haka in the shed is simply us responding to the response. It looks silly and petty but it is something we should be allowed to do and does not stop teams from responding to the haka. Also again the NZRU had nothing to do with that decision as far as I know.

that makes absolutely zero sense.

Basically what you're saying is, you can respond but if we dont' like that response we negate your response by not doing it infront fo you so you can respond but only in a way we deem appropriate.

And here in is where the perceptions of issues start. Complaining and putting conditions on how people respond means you're protecting it, complaining about people not respecting it by singing over it... means you're protecting it.

Regardless of who is behind that it has an impact.

Once again, the NZRU has never lobbied to make it illegal to advance the haka. This was set in place by World Rugby. The All Blacks will also be fined if we advance on any other side when doing the haka. World Rugby obviously decided to seperate the teams because they did not want the haka to turn into conflict. Once again if you are referring to the Cockerill incident or the French incident, most New Zealanders thought it was great. Hewitt said he took no offence to the incident.

so you think this decision:

"In2006 the All Blacks performed their haka in their dressing room before beating Wales 45-10 at the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff. The WRU had asked them to perform it between the anthems rather than after them - it wanted the Welsh national anthem to be their official response - but that was considered unacceptable. "The tradition needs to be honoured properly if we're going to do it," fumed All Blacks skipper Richie McCaw. "If the other team wants to mess around, we'll just do the haka in the shed (changing room). At the end of the day, haka is about spiritual preparation and we do it for ourselves. Traditionally fans can share the experience too and it's sad that they couldn't see it today. The players didn't take the decision lightly." .

was made without the NZRFU backing it? LOL!!!

yeah but crowd singing over it is ridiculous all the same. It's one of those situations where something unfair is occurring and to retaliate you do something equally unfair, and it's complicated, a big mess, and you find yourself doing something silly in the end that's not intelligent or redeeming.
These guys come in, do the haka; as a player you have to stand there and watch, possibly farting (provided they hear you or the cam catches it) gets you in jail or at least a heavy monetary sanction; but then if a crowd of 83 billion sings over 20 dudes in short shorts ehhh, you're not exactly replying in kind or in a way that is even in the most bizarre universe "fair".
I'd imagine 20 dudes doing a performance, and I just play Cannibal Corpse at 300dB just to, ooh, show my presence...very big, much intimidating...you may not agree with the haka but doing something so utterly stupid in turn doesn't fix the situation or add anything valuable. Plus it's a complete sheep herd mentality instance where the people don't think twice and hear chants nearby and join in by yelling, just because, "we have to defend our house, yay", well done.. which I find the opposite of noble and intelligent or just the right thing to do whatsoever.

You don't believe in home advantage then?

 

[welshglory]

Completely agree. Home team should have priority.

 

[j'nuh]

Does anyone actually have an explanation of why there has to be a 10m gap between the teams?

Apparently it used to be 20m and came down to 10m a few years ago. But I don't understand why the gap is even there at all? It doesn't make any sense to me?

The only potential explanation I have is that challenging players get in the way of cameras? Harder to get a frontal shot if there are players in the way.

Also, it totally bypassed me how low the fine is. £2500. I wonder whether the idea was to make it a small fine so teams only do it on big occasions? Would suck if every team challenged the haka every time.