Please World Rugby, ban the Haka

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Party pooper.

Bottom line for me - the haka shouldn't intimidate the opposing team, it should motivate them! The response to the haka should be the opposing team's attack, their fight for possession and their scoring. Challenge with their bodies, not with chants or songs. To say that the ABs have an advantage because of the haka would be to say that the opposing team just doesn't have it in them to offer up a physical response on the pitch. I can't believe that rugby players - even the teetotalers - are so weak that they'd allow a little pre-match song and dance routine throw them off their game.

No, the reason the ABs win is because of NZ's rugby program, their approach to the game overall, and because of national pride in the team (as opposed to those nations who are always complaining and tearing down their teams). You wanna beat the ABs? Then play like the ABs. No dance routine necessary.


das

Don't worry, I've started the tea thread. look here: http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/34659-The-Tea-thread?p=698482#post698482

 

[Rich Taff]

This again?
Once again, without the Haka, there may not even be national anthems sung before International sport matches.
The National Anthem before a sportsmatch was first sung as a response to the Haka by the Welsh team and crowd in 1905, and has stuck.
I wouldn't mind getting rid of some of the ten minute long national anthems (or abbreviating them).

 

[Icemn]

how did this thread go from banning the haka to drinking tea, what is the world coming to?... i love rooibos myself

 

[HenryChinaski]

Love the haka to bits... what I don't love is when some fans moan about it being challenged. It's by its very definition a challenge, one which requires a response.
Thee problem is some fans want to think of the Haka as similar to going to the theatre where you watch with silent objectivity; in truth you can't divorce it from the competitive sporting context.

To cut a long story short we need to preserve traditions like the Haka, but to do so, the fans of haka-performing countries need to accept that challenging it - either through the crowd singing or players taking a few steps forward - is a perfectly valid response. Most already do accept this I hasten to add, but periodically we have comments on here lamenting the 'boorishness' of those who dare to respond.

 

[dasNdanger]

Love the haka to bits... what I don't love is when some fans moan about it being challenged. It's by its very definition a challenge, one which requires a response.

Thee problem is some fans want to think of the Haka as similar to going to the theatre where you watch with silent objectivity; in truth you can't divorce it from the competitive sporting context.

To cut a long story short we need to preserve traditions like the Haka, but to do so, the fans of haka-performing countries need to accept that challenging it - either through the crowd singing or players taking a few steps forward - is a perfectly valid response. Most already do accept this I hasten to add, but periodically we have comments on here lamenting the 'boorishness' of those who dare to respond.

I agree - and that's why I suggested the response should come from quality of play. The haka should make the other team determined to win as their response to the haka 'challenge'. It's really quite simple - the ABs challenge in the haka performance, and the opposing team responds to that challenge by their performance on the pitch.



das

 

[Big Ewis]

I wouldn't mind getting rid of some of the ten minute long national anthems (or abbreviating them).

not the Welsh one, though ! It's the best one out there.

Nah but I mean, maybe have all the guys play rock, scissors, paper for 50 some seconds, let them do their thing so they and the crowds are happy and we can get on with it, you know, the actual Rugby Union 80min match. Stretch out...or just lock in your eyes in their general direction, big bulging fish look, but think about who you haven't emailed back in a while and whether the gf remembered to repair the microwave...

A cool thing would be have the entire team look really pi***d right the hell off, the entire player chain: guys rolling eyes repeatedly, look into the sky, some of them looking morbidly bored and look at the ground while sighing deeply, some frowning eyebrows with a look of despair, some looking downright depressed and catatonic not moving at all not blinking, two-three guys shaking their heads, a few guys yawning intermittently.. the one odd guy who's REALLY into it smiling like a starving candidate nodding his head nervously..

 

[HenryChinaski]

I agree - and that's why I suggested the response should come from quality of play. The haka should make the other team determined to win as their response to the haka 'challenge'. It's really quite simple - the ABs challenge in the haka performance, and the opposing team responds to that challenge by their performance on the pitch.


das

I disagree that it's this simple; The All Blacks are afforded an additional form of cultural expression. Yes, opposition can respond on the pitch, but then the All Blacks are not going to be passive in this, just as we shouldn't expect opposition teams and supporters to be 100% passive during the Haka itself. Its unrealistic, even silly to expect passivity.

 

[nickdnz]

I disagree that it's this simple; The All Blacks are afforded an additional form of cultural expression. Yes, opposition can respond on the pitch, but then the All Blacks are not going to be passive in this, just as we shouldn't expect opposition teams and supporters to be 100% passive during the Haka itself. Its unrealistic, even silly to expect passivity.

Ridiculous. On that basis no PI nation should be allowed their form of a haka, Scotland should not allow Bagpipes outside the anthem, all anthems should be restricted to only one anthem.

 

[HenryChinaski]

Nick, are you gradually as you get older losing the ability to read? I have nowhere stated that the All Blacks should lose this cultural expression.

I clearly stated above that I am a fan of the haka and want to preserve it - my suggestion was that its unfair to call for complete silence and reverence whilst its being performed.

Its a sign of the chip on your shoulder that you think I'm speaking only of the New Zealand Haka and have forgotten about the PI. The bagpipes, meanwhile, is a disanalogy because there isn't a set slot in which Scotland blow their pipes whilst the rest off us shut the **** up or else, unlike with the haka and its many iterations, which again I iterate, I love...

There's also a bit of a privileging of tradition going on with these things; fans try and claim that the haka is our expression and that you have to be quiet and respectful because you have your own forms of expression which you can carry out. This is wrong, because if tomorrow for some awful reason England announced they wanted to perform morris dancing before the anthems it would not be allowed on the grounds that it hasn't been built into tradition. Thus its disingenuous to allege that there's a fair process of open minded negotiation going on with regards to the performance space.

 

[Big Ewis]

so it's decided then. Opposing player chain to produce volume themselves as response, some form of sound...as a long-time composer, I should think of something complementary to the haka, but then again philosophically we'd want to rather not conform to it and by definition react to it, therefor it needs to be the opposite of harmonious and in unison with the haka...an interesting cacophony would be.
..

Bohemian Rhapsody over the haka. You see the guys standing in a queue, straight face, each one with a line successively...
"Kawate, Kawate !!" - "BISMILLAHH !!!"

It would be like an excerpt of a jazz concert of sorts...a complicated, cringe-provoking listen, but satisfying at the same time. Would take some time getting used to it, but eventually crowds and TV-watchers would become adept Hakacophony listeners. Albums would come out, remixes...good marketing...no no, quite a program.

 

[tituslechmakus]

Nick, are you gradually as you get older losing the ability to read? I have nowhere stated that the All Blacks should lose this cultural expression.

I clearly stated above that I am a fan of the haka and want to preserve it - my suggestion was that its unfair to call for complete silence and reverence whilst its being performed.

Its a sign of the chip on your shoulder that you think I'm speaking only of the New Zealand Haka and have forgotten about the PI. The bagpipes, meanwhile, is a disanalogy because there isn't a set slot in which Scotland blow their pipes whilst the rest off us shut the **** up or else, unlike with the haka and its many iterations, which again I iterate, I love...

There's also a bit of a privileging of tradition going on with these things; fans try and claim that the haka is our expression and that you have to be quiet and respectful because you have your own forms of expression which you can carry out. This is wrong, because if tomorrow for some awful reason England announced they wanted to perform morris dancing before the anthems it would not be allowed on the grounds that it hasn't been built into tradition. Thus its disingenuous to allege that there's a fair process of open minded negotiation going on with regards to the performance space.

Or it could be fun to have the Scotts doing trunk throwing on the pitch while PI are performing the haka ! After all, trunk throwing is cultural to them and has the same goal as the haka : prove your strengh and motivate troops !

Of course, I do not mean throw the trunks at their face ! That would be disrespectful !

 

[dasNdanger]

Nick, are you gradually as you get older losing the ability to read? I have nowhere stated that the All Blacks should lose this cultural expression.

I clearly stated above that I am a fan of the haka and want to preserve it - my suggestion was that its unfair to call for complete silence and reverence whilst its being performed.

Its a sign of the chip on your shoulder that you think I'm speaking only of the New Zealand Haka and have forgotten about the PI. The bagpipes, meanwhile, is a disanalogy because there isn't a set slot in which Scotland blow their pipes whilst the rest off us shut the **** up or else, unlike with the haka and its many iterations, which again I iterate, I love...

There's also a bit of a privileging of tradition going on with these things; fans try and claim that the haka is our expression and that you have to be quiet and respectful because you have your own forms of expression which you can carry out. This is wrong, because if tomorrow for some awful reason England announced they wanted to perform morris dancing before the anthems it would not be allowed on the grounds that it hasn't been built into tradition. Thus its disingenuous to allege that there's a fair process of open minded negotiation going on with regards to the performance space.

Yeah, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree there. I have no problem with a team silently advancing on the ABs, but noise that drowns out the haka? No, it shouldn't be allowed. I do think that's disrespectful because it's like an audience that heckles over a public speaker. Heckling = disrespect, and so singing, chanting, yelling, or anything else during the haka would amount to heckling, which is a disrespectful action.

If a team wants to counter the haka with their own challenge, then most countries have some sort of cultural (not patriotic, like an anthem) dance, song, chant - something - that could possibly be introduced as a challenge performed in response to the haka. That said, it's unlikely that the rugby players themselves would be able to perform it (for instance, Native American culture has 'war dances', but it may be considered disrespectful for non-Native peoples to perform it, especially at a sporting event).

I can't see why each team couldn't have some sort of culturally-based slogan, motto, or chant that could be offered up by the team as a whole.

For instance, after the haka the Welsh team could loudly declare Cymru am byth! I know that's fairly simplistic, but you get the idea.


das

 

[jonny24]

Yeah, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree there. I have no problem with a team silently advancing on the ABs, but noise that drowns out the haka? No, it shouldn't be allowed. I do think that's disrespectful because it's like an audience that heckles over a public speaker. Heckling = disrespect, and so singing, chanting, yelling, or anything else during the haka would amount to heckling, which is a disrespectful action.

I agree that the players shouldn't do anything over top of it, but for the crowd it's fair game. I have absolutely no problem with the English fans singing over it if they so choose. You can't have respect by demanding it. The fans who don't think it shouldn't be sung over, for respect or whatever reason, won't.

Like making noise during a kick. Watching English teams, I sometimes think my speakers broke it's so quiet, till they kick the ball. Go to a Canada home game, we're all making noise, trying to psych out the kicker. Noticed the same thing watching a Heinieken Cup game at one of the French teams this past weekend.

If the crowd want to cheer they'll cheer. If they want to jeer they'll jeer.

Back to the haka... like I said I was very surprised to learn that there were such restrictions in place. Not going over halfway, that's fair, lots of testosterone in the air, wouldn't want a little physical contact or shove to happen before the match gets started. But other than that a team should be free to stare them own, sing a song after, have group huddle, practice lineouts, karaoke, whatever. There should be zero "special treatment" for the haka, the AB's are already a class above on the pitch.

 

[Rich Taff]

not the Welsh one, though ! It's the best one out there.

Nah but I mean, maybe have all the guys play rock, scissors, paper for 50 some seconds, let them do their thing so they and the crowds are happy and we can get on with it, you know, the actual Rugby Union 80min match. Stretch out...or just lock in your eyes in their general direction, big bulging fish look, but think about who you haven't emailed back in a while and whether the gf remembered to repair the microwave...

A cool thing would be have the entire team look really pi***d right the hell off, the entire player chain: guys rolling eyes repeatedly, look into the sky, some of them looking morbidly bored and look at the ground while sighing deeply, some frowning eyebrows with a look of despair, some looking downright depressed and catatonic not moving at all not blinking, two-three guys shaking their heads, a few guys yawning intermittently.. the one odd guy who's REALLY into it smiling like a starving candidate nodding his head nervously..

So the England football team?

 

[ENZED-88]

Yeah, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree there. I have no problem with a team silently advancing on the ABs, but noise that drowns out the haka? No, it shouldn't be allowed. I do think that's disrespectful because it's like an audience that heckles over a public speaker. Heckling = disrespect, and so singing, chanting, yelling, or anything else during the haka would amount to heckling, which is a disrespectful action.


das

Have to disagree with you there das, a rabid crowd of 80,000 supporters should be able to do what ever the **** they want to do. At the end of it all the challenge from the ABs is not directed towards them both sets of players know that. Let the crowds sing, boo or cheer it's their home ground let the visiting team know " THIS IS OUR HOUSE" that's what both teams expect of the home crowd, the haka is the ABs saying "we're here to play, come at me" I 100% agree with you, as most other NZers would you need to beat the ABs on the field and accept the challenge. But to tell the home crowd to shoosh in their own house is disrespectful

 

[Rich Taff]

I may be completely mistaken here, so don't form a lynch mob.
I heard/read/watched something somewhere at sometime, that said the 'kamate kamate...' haka, was actually performed after retreat from battle, and was a taunt for those who could not catch them.
Again, I'm not sure where/when/why I heard it, but it stuck in my head.
Anyone able to elaborate?

 

[ENZED-88]

I may be completely mistaken here, so don't form a lynch mob.
I heard/read/watched something somewhere at sometime, that said the 'kamate kamate...' haka, was actually performed after retreat from battle, and was a taunt for those who could not catch them.
Again, I'm not sure where/when/why I heard it, but it stuck in my head.
Anyone able to elaborate?

Ok I'll set the backdrop for this story:

It's a couple hundred years ago there is a lot of tribal unrest in NZ. Te Rauparaha cheif of Ngati Toa tribe goes on his way to travel and try an find allies in other tribes, Another tribe Ngati te Aho, had beef with Te Rauparaha (for another altercation) sent a war party to find him and make him pay (NZ was in beast mode in these days and the currency was blood) he got wind of the party chasing him and was helped by a leader of another tribe who got him to hide in a kumara( sweet potato) pit. When Ngati Te Aho arrived it is said he muttered (while hiding In the pit)
Ka mate Ka mate/ I die I die
Ka Ora ka ora/ I live I live
He said this not knowing if they will find him or not.
In the end they didn't an the rest if the haka is the rest of the tale.
There are thousand of haka in NZ, ka mate is the most famous one by far it's pretty much a celebration of survival, nothing to do with the team.
Kapa o pango (team in black) is the all black haka.

 

[Shaggy]

... Oh. the "Ban the Haka" thread ... isn't it a month late this year

 

[Big Ewis]

... Oh. the "Ban the Haka" thread ... isn't it a month late this year

well it's better than a 'hack the banana' thread, so in light of this, we ought to all settle for the little that we do have and not be ungrateful, although yes it is copiously little. This thread was bestowed upon us peasantly things, and we must be content, not critical. What is given to us we mustn't take for Grant Hill. Beauty is in the "hi !" of the beholder. Haka mole. Hakattack. The Haka is within. And outward, also. But it is within, although outward also. The Haka.

 

[Shaggy]

well it's better than a 'hack the banana' thread, so in light of this, we ought to all settle for the little that we do have and not be ungrateful, although yes it is copiously little. This thread was bestowed upon us peasantly things, and we must be content, not critical. What is given to us we mustn't take for Grant Hill. Beauty is in the "hi !" of the beholder. Haka mole. Hakattack. The Haka is within. And outward, also. But it is within, although outward also. The Haka.

Critical ... no ... just a little disappointed ... I asked for a wake up call back in March on another unique thread

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LOL ... is it "Richie's a cheat" season again already ?

... maybe wake me when the "Ban the Haka" season starts

Ban the Haka season isn't until November. Ritchie's a cheat season goes 12 months a year, including up to 10 - 40 years after his retirement.