Please World Rugby, ban the Haka

[Muse_Cubed]

it's awful, would much rather Jerusalem.

Seriously? The song which can be simply answered with "No."?

 

[Noodle]

A myth and a strawman of World Rugby's making!

No-one in New Zealand (or at least, no-one who knows anything at all about Maori) is arguing that this should happen. Ask any Maori elder and they will tell you that how you respond to haka is YOUR CHOICE. If you want to stand still and face it, you can do that. If you want to advance on it, you can do that, if you want to sing all the way through it, you can do that.

No Maori will question your choice of how to respond.

I love the way the Irish responded in 1989 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weUHwCjeD7s

I loved the Mexican stand-off that the Welsh employed in 2008 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fYIUdVNFgU&feature=related

I loved the "in-ya-face" by Cokers and Norm Hewitt at Twickenham in 1997 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hOZRHpleH8

Challenge and Response. That is what Haka is all about!!!

It is the WR (formerly the iRB who have dictated how opponents must respond, so stop blaming Kiwis for this state of affairs... it was not our doing and we generally do not agree with it.

I was talking to the two New Zealand posters who disagreed above.

 

[goodNumber10]

Seriously? The song which can be simply answered with "No."?

qué?

 

[j'nuh]

qué?

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England’s mountains green? No.
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England’s pleasant pastures seen? No.
And did the countenance divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills? No.
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark satanic mills? No.


He makes a fair point tbh!

It always strikes me as odd, when the topic of changing the English national anthem comes up, that a nation that isn't particularly religious and isn't particularly proud of its history wants a particularly religious (Jerusalem) or particularly pro-Empire (Land of Hope and Glory) national anthem.

I Vow to Thee, My Country all the way.

 

[RobbieD_PL]

As an Aussie with Pakeha blood, I'm going put in my two cents. Given how the rugby pitch is well marked; there should be really simply laid-out rules of where the haka could be performed (inside the NZ half, up to 5 meters from 50) and the opposition should equally be able to move up to 5 meters from the 50 if they want to face it. It's not like there will be pushing or shoving at the half-way line, and unless i'm wrong, there's never been any instance of any physical contact initiated by the opponents following a haka. Just one thing. It's great to see two Polynesian teams do their own haka, cibi, sivitau etc. but it seems like quite a mess when two teams perform at the same time. Maybe another reform could be to have war dances performed separately? Or not?

 

[William18]

My understanding was that the 10 metre rule was imposed as a result of incidents such as Coterill vs Hewitt. Yes we did slink off and do it in the shed. However, Wales or whoever could still respond to the haka however they wanted. We then decided to respond to their response. It looked churlish but it did not stop teams from responding to the haka. All our actions basically said were if you don't want the haka to be performed then it doesn't have to be.

 

[smartcooky]

I Vow to Thee, My Country all the way.

Its already taken

 

[smartcooky]

All our actions basically said were if you don't want the haka to be performed then it doesn't have to be.

100% correct. Pity there's a few ignorant fools that fail to understand this simple fact.

We have the absolute right to perform the haka on the pitch at home. For away matches we should only do it on the pitch if invited to do so by the host union. If no invitation is forthcoming then we perform it in the dressing room like we did in Wales in 2006 and the host fans will be denied. You can be near 100% certain that invitations will always be issued.

The fact that it is only Haka that the idiots ever complain about (there is never any whinging about the Siva Tau or any other cultural displays by other teams) tells me that it is not Haka that is the issue. Its just a case of TPS. They hate us and will do and say anything to justify their whinging.

 

[dasNdanger]

Next time NZ plays England, England should counter with their team performing a Morris dance. That'll shut the haka naysayers up REAL quick.

In other words, the sport as a whole (fans, teams, etc) needs to learn to appreciate what it has and what the haka brings to the game. The haka is fierce and visceral, just like the game itself. That can fire up both the fans and the players. But you start begging for a counter performance and you just might get a bunch of guys skipping about and waving white hankies. Or worse - you may get nothing at all.

The haka isn't just for NZ - it's for the sport as a whole. At least right now as the game is spreading its influence around the world. The haka makes people take notice. The haka has become synonymous with rugby, even when people don't realize it's just the New Zealand team that performs it. So think of the ABs with their haka as rugby ambassadors, because I'm pretty sure that little war chant has had more influence in drawing world attention to the sport than any great try, great player, or even a great team.


das

 

[goodNumber10]

Pity there's a few ignorant cnuts

Nice!

We have the absolute right to perform the haka on the pitch at home. For away matches we should only do it on the pitch if invited to do so by the host union. If no invitation is forthcoming then we perform it in the dressing room like we did in Wales in 2006 and the host fans will be denied. You can be near 100% certain that invitations will always be issued.

New Zealand WERE invited to do the Haka in 2006. However Wales wanted to respond with the Anthem as they had done on the 100 year celebration the year before but apparently that wasn't good enough for Richie and the boys so we got a level four New Zealand sulk and they slunk off to the changing rooms. Leaving thousands of fans disappointed.

The fact that it is only Haka that the idiots ever complain about (there is never any whinging about the Siva Tau or any other cultural displays by other teams) tells me that it is not Haka that is the issue. Its just a case of TPS. They hate us and will do and say anything to justify their whinging.

It's really quite funny how New Zealander's such as yourself portray the All Blacks as the persecuted victims in all of this. People along this discussion have said it is the same for all nation's but that people are focusing on the Haka as it's the highest profile one out of all of them, very few have said don't do it.

You have clearly either not understood the issue people have, or not read the thread and are now just trolling (I think it's likely the latter).

Again I ask all of the NZ posters why should the Haka be the last thing that happens before kick off if NZ are the away team?

Next time NZ plays England, England should counter with their team performing a Morris dance. That'll shut the haka naysayers up REAL quick.

In other words, the sport as a whole (fans, teams, etc) needs to learn to appreciate what it has and what the haka brings to the game. The haka is fierce and visceral, just like the game itself. That can fire up both the fans and the players. But you start begging for a counter performance and you just might get a bunch of guys skipping about and waving white hankies. Or worse - you may get nothing at all.

The haka isn't just for NZ - it's for the sport as a whole. At least right now as the game is spreading its influence around the world. The haka makes people take notice. The haka has become synonymous with rugby, even when people don't realize it's just the New Zealand team that performs it. So think of the ABs with their haka as rugby ambassadors, because I'm pretty sure that little war chant has had more influence in drawing world attention to the sport than any great try, great player, or even a great team.


das

I don't think anyone disputes that das, i think what people are fed up with is the fact that a piece of NZ culture rides rough shod over everyone else

It's a magnificent thing to see, and experience up close but the film crews, the mic up the constant moaning about what teams should be allowed to do and not allowed to do, and people are being disingenuous if they say NZ are not involved in the consultation process.

Every performance goes into the Adidas vaults and is used for sponsorship and promotional purposes- but then it's onyl done for the boys in the team "we do it for ourselves".

It always strikes me as odd, when the topic of changing the English national anthem comes up, that a nation that isn't particularly religious and isn't particularly proud of its history wants a particularly religious (Jerusalem) or particularly pro-Empire (Land of Hope and Glory) national anthem.

I Vow to Thee, My Country all the way.

I wouldn't say we aren't a particularly religious country at all... we're a christian nation and the fundamentals of our society are rightly or wrongly based on christianity.

Additionally it's just a blooming beautiful bit of poetry/hymn etc... and could be taken to mean a lot of things. Ultimatley the words are just stunning and we'd clearly have the best anthem in world rugby if it became the England RFU anthem :

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On England's pleasant pastures seen!

And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

Bring me my Bow of burning gold;
Bring me my Arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In England's green & pleasant Land

 

[smartcooky]

New Zealand WERE invited to do the Haka in 2006. However Wales wanted to respond with the Anthem as they had done on the 100 year celebration the year before but apparently that wasn't good enough for Richie and the boys so we got a level four New Zealand sulk and they slunk off to the changing rooms. Leaving thousands of fans disappointed.

As usual, you are posting a small, cherry picked part of the truth, and misrepresenting the rest with bullsh¡t that you made up yourself.

The All Blacks agreed in 2005 to change the order to how things had been in 1905 for the 100 year celebration of that first match. Part of that agreement was that the change it was NOT to set a precedent and that the change would NOT be repeated in following years. The WRU then reneged on that agreement in 2006.

From the article YOU linked in your post #138

"All Blacks head coach Graham Henry said he believed it had been agreed that 2005's match, which saw the haka followed by the Welsh anthem, was a one-off.

He said: "We agreed to the change last year but we had a guarantee it wouldn't happen again. But they (the WRU) asked us to do the same this year and we said no."

In future, perhaps you might want to think about actually reading the stuff you quote in your posts so that you don't end up making a fool of yourself in public.

 

[goodNumber10]

As usual, you are posting a small, cherry picked part of the truth, and misrepresenting the rest with bullsh¡t that you made up yourself.

The All Blacks agreed in 2005 to change the order to how things had been in 1905 for the 100 year celebration of that first match. Part of that agreement was that the change it was NOT to set a precedent and that the change would NOT be repeated in following years. The WRU then reneged on that agreement in 2006.

From the article YOU linked in your post #138



In future, perhaps you might want to think about actually reading the stuff you quote in your posts so that you don't end up making a fool of yourself in public.

none of which, my foulmouthed friend, changes the fundamental point I'm making in that New Zealand are the ones who dictate where the Haka should be done, and ultimately how it should be responded to... there is an WR edict on what you can and can't do, but by positioning themselves last they undermine any scope for a team to respond.

Additionally you talk about me cherry picking, yet the line right above the last one you highlight gives it all away...also I notice you still don't answer my question.

here it is:

All Blacks head coach Graham Henry said he believed it had been agreed that 2005's match, which saw the haka followed by the Welsh anthem, was a one-off.

 

[smartcooky]

none of which, my foulmouthed chum, changes the fundamental point I'm making in that New Zealand are the ones who dictate where the Haka should be done, and ultimately how it should be responded to... there is an WR edict on what you can and can't do, but by positioning themselves last they undermine and scope for a team to respond.

Additionally you talk about me cherry picking, yet the line right above the last one you highlight gives it all away...also I notice you still don't answer my question.

OK, I'll bite

Again I ask all of the NZ posters why should the Haka be the last thing that happens before kick off if NZ are the away team?

Why shouldn't it be? It has been the tradition for over 100 years, there is no reason to change it. Yes it was changed once in 1905 (very early on) and hasn't been changed since, except in 2005 for Wales' special occasion, with an agreement that 2005 was a one-off. When someone makes a agreement they need to stick to it, If the AB management had backed down to the Welsh in 2006, it would set a precedent and open the door for other unions to try it on.

Haka is OUR thing, and its OUR prerogative to perform it at a time of our choosing; If that doesn't suit the host union, then its not performed on the pitch and we take it into the sheds. Those are the conditions; its that simple!

Its pretty clear that the VAST majority of non-NZ rugby fans want things left as they are now, at least judging by the chorus of boos from the Welsh crowd when they didn't get it as part of their match experience in 2006.

All Blacks head coach Graham Henry said he believed it had been agreed that 2005's match, which saw the haka followed by the Welsh anthem, was a one-off.

and you conveniently left out the next line....

We agreed to the change last year but we had a guarantee it wouldn't happen again. But they (the WRU) asked us to do the same this year and we said no."

However, to remove all doubt

http://www.allblacks.com/News/5211/no-haka-turned-up-the-heat-collins

However, the All Blacks only agreed to the switch last year because it marked the centenary of Wales-New Zealand Tests.

Then-captain Tana Umaga said afterwards that the All Blacks wouldn't comply in that way for at least another 100 years and the NZRU was adamant tonight that it received a guarantee from the WRU that no such request would be made again.

 

[goodNumber10]

 

[McTallshort]

Load of fuss over a bloody dance. The All Blacks only started taking it seriously about 30 years ago before that it was nothing more than a bit of joke before kick off.

All this rubbish about giving them an edge, are we honestly saying that New Zealand wouldnt stuff everyone if they didnt perform the haka?

 

[smartcooky]

Ah! The last resort of the incompetent!

You're a lightweight chum. You don't have the skills to debate without trying to bullsh¡t everyone, and when you get called on your bullsh¡t, all you have left is to post stupid memes!

 

[goodNumber10]

lol! Ignoratio elenchi pal.

You haven't called me on anything, the link you posted backs up pretty much everything i've said, you focus in on the minutest of points ignoring everything that you can't argue against.

You criticise me for posting a news article which you pass off as "opinion" yet a post from the All Blacks website should be taken as gospel? lol!

 

[smartcooky]

lol! Ignoratio elenchi pal.

You haven't called me on anything, the link you posted backs up pretty much everything i've said

It backs up what YOU said?

That's bloody priceless, you'd argue that black was white!

FACT: The NZRU agreed to make a change in 2005 to help celebrate the 100th Anniversary of tests between Wales and New Zealand

FACT: The condition under which the NZRU agreed to the change was that it was a one-off for 2005 and would not be requested again. The NZRU have claimed this, the WRU have not denied this. Nowhere on the WRU website is there any refutation of the NZRU's claim that the agreement in 2005 was a one-off. The reason for that is obvious if you think about it. AFAIC the WRU's silence on the matter means they do not disagree with the NZRU's claim.

FACT: In 2006, the WRU, in contravention of their prior agreement with the NZRU, requested a change again. The NZRU quite rightly said no and the matter should have ended there, but the WRU tried to ignore that and attempted to press ahead with what they wanted to do. The All Blacks then took the Haka to the sheds, (and then afterwards, took Wales to the cleaners on the pitch).

These are established facts, accepted by both the NZRU and the WRU.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10412657

The All Blacks are standing staunchly by their dressing room haka, saying they weren't prepared to be "bullied" by a stubborn Welsh Rugby Union (WRU).

"At the end of the day this is a team that makes its own decisions, it's not going to bullied around by anybody, especially over something as dear to them as the haka," Hansen said.

NZPA understands All Blacks management was frustrated the WRU never gave a coherent reason for wanting to change the traditional protocol again, with the explanations constantly changing over six weeks of negotiation. Management was also angry the WRU had gone back on an agreement last year that the change would be a one-off.

..you focus in on the minutest of points ignoring everything that you can't argue against.

No, I focus on the points that are important to ME, and those which I think are important to other New Zealanders, and I don't attempt to answer questions that I don't know the answer to. And by the way, I really don't give a fat rats arse what you think is important.

You criticise me for posting a news article which you pass off as "opinion"

I didn't criticise you for posting a news article, I criticised you for not it reading first. If you had, you would have seen that it contained aspects that contradicted what you were claiming. More the fool you for not doing so, but by all means, keep digging... its fun to watch.

yet a post from the All Blacks website should be taken as gospel? lol!

When it comes to Haka and other aspects of Maori culture, people like you and your national press have shown their utter ignorance, time and time again, so yes, I find the All Blacks website far more reliable than any other source when it comes to aspects of NZ Rugby and Haka, particularly as they have have created their own, Kapa O Pango, which has been fully endorsed by Kaumatua.

 

[ENZED-88]

Ah! The last resort of the incompetent!

You're a lightweight chum. You don't have the skills to debate without trying to bullsh¡t everyone, and when you get called on your bullsh¡t, all you have left is to post stupid memes!

Time to let it go brother. I just looked at how many post he has an how long he's been on here, you're not gonna get the win bro.

 

[dasNdanger]

Come'on guys, this is about challenging the haka, not each other. Can we put the testosterone away and have a group hug?

(Mostly I just feel like hugging people on-line today - I had a cold in by dose and everyone's avoiding me like the plague. )


das