A Political Thread

[Zapphod]

If we where to go (still not convinced by that) May will not want to use Article 50 and she seems to be favourite.

Could we in theory set up stronger trade and lessen immigration borders between countries like Canada, Aus and NZ etc? As a way of damage control?

You could but:
A: wouldnt that just be considered racist (Kiwi's Aussies and Canadians welcome, all others bugger off).
B: You are not going to replace the European trade value even if you did a deal with the whole Commonwealth and further to that New Zealand at least (I imagine Aussie and Canada are doing the same) is busily trying to negotiate a deal with the EU which is more lucrative for us.

Unfortunately you guys have made your choice and let xenophobic nonsense triumph over rational thought... good luck.

 

[ncurd]

.Hey Ncurd - if that does happen - think the Lib Dems would be up for another merger?

Farron did say when Corbyn was elected we would welcome then in with open arms. But honestly we'll have to be careful not to dilute who we are. Still far better to have them than be fighting with us. I guess it all depends who splits if it's the left of labor with Corbyn they'll probably go create a left party that will probably not get enough support. If the right party they'll probably create a center-left party very close to us and that could become uncomfortable.

Afterall the merger was actually a good thing for us. Plus some real good leadership whilst I like Clegg but people forget he lost seats both times as leader (no idea how he did it after Clegg mania but there you go). Ashdown and Kennedy led us to real growth that came from having a very clear alternative message.

We are getting a huge influx of members again from both Labor and the Tories of annoyed members who believe they've been let down over Europe.

 

[munstermuffin]

Wow UK politics are up in air massively. Parties seem to be in awful states looking on from outside.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Wow UK politics are up in air massively. Parties seem to be in awful states looking on from outside.

Dude, UK has it way better even with the whole Brexit thing going on than South Africa.

Are they even showing the violent protests and looting that is going on here in SA currently up there in the NH??

 

[McTallshort]

You could but:
A: wouldnt that just be considered racist (Kiwi's Aussies and Canadians welcome, all others bugger off).
B: You are not going to replace the European trade value even if you did a deal with the whole Commonwealth and further to that New Zealand at least (I imagine Aussie and Canada are doing the same) is busily trying to negotiate a deal with the EU which is more lucrative for us.

Unfortunately you guys have made your choice and let xenophobic nonsense triumph over rational thought... good luck.

Xenophobic? Of course you would give up the sovereign powers we did to be part of a basket case economy like the EU? No didn't think so

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Dude, UK has it way better even with the whole Brexit thing going on than South Africa.

Are they even showing the violent protests and looting that is going on here in SA currently up there in the NH??

I haven't seen anything on them but i haven't really been watching the news.

- - - Updated - - -

You could but:
A: wouldnt that just be considered racist (Kiwi's Aussies and Canadians welcome, all others bugger off).
B: You are not going to replace the European trade value even if you did a deal with the whole Commonwealth and further to that New Zealand at least (I imagine Aussie and Canada are doing the same) is busily trying to negotiate a deal with the EU which is more lucrative for us.

Unfortunately you guys have made your choice and let xenophobic nonsense triumph over rational thought... good luck.

So are you saying the current EU is racist? As the EU is exactly the same thing as that. Those with EU passports get free rein but everyone else has to jump through lots of hoops it is the exact same thing. Pretty much the same thing.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

You could but:
Unfortunately you guys have made your choice and let xenophobic nonsense triumph over rational thought... good luck.

That is a total lack of understanding of why UK left to leave the EU. If this was solely about free trade, then UK would have stayed in EU comfortably. This was about further political Union and of course controlling immigration. This latter bit maybe construed as Xenophobic, but it is an issue and neither would NZ or Australia like or want uncontrolled immigration into their countries (I know Australia has a points system), but if you are from NZ you would have to correct me if NZ don't have something similar. It is something UK look like they are striving for in light of Brexit.

 

[j'nuh]

You're still wrong. They're not the enemy.

Sometime rival, maybe. Bad friend, yeah, that could work. I'm not here to say that New Labour and its works are wonderful for Labour's hard left and the working classes - which are two different things, just like Labour's right and New Labour are two different things.

But they're not the enemy. Someone who's willing to be in the same political party as you is not your enemy.

At least, they're not unless the hard left want them to be the enemy. But you'd like to think Labour's hard left have enough enemies in the world without making more.

Maybe, it's not the perception of those that left Labour, nor the perception of a hell of a lot of people that are currently supporting Corbyn, nor the perception of a lot of people who do not see the difference between Labour and Tories. Whether they are right or wrong doesn't really matter, politics is about perception.

And if the PLP were to arrange things so that a new leadership challenge occurred and Corbyn was not on the ballot paper for the party membership to vote for, well, the PLP will be perceived to be the enemy.

 

[Tony Manx]

Dude, UK has it way better even with the whole Brexit thing going on than South Africa.

Are they even showing the violent protests and looting that is going on here in SA currently up there in the NH??

Not a thing mentioned and friends with property there are still lauding the concept that there are no problems there!

 

[Thingimubob]

That is a total lack of understanding of why UK left to leave the EU. If this was solely about free trade, then UK would have stayed in EU comfortably. This was about further political Union and of course controlling immigration. This latter bit maybe construed as Xenophobic, but it is an issue and neither would NZ or Australia like or want uncontrolled immigration into their countries (I know Australia has a points system), but if you are from NZ you would have to correct me if NZ don't have something similar. It is something UK look like they are striving for in light of Brexit.

Problem is a lot of the rhetoric around immigration, both pre and post referendum, has been misguided at best, straight up false xenophobia at its worst.

EU immigrants contribute more than they take out in total, but people don't seem to realise that. On top of that, people seem to think that by voting out they'll be stopping people from countries outside the EU coming in, when naturally that type of immigration is not affected by Brexit.

Also the biggest irony for me is that we'll probably have to accept freedom of movement anyway if we want to join the EEA (think some Leave campaigners have admitted as much by now), which makes the damn immigration argument fall flat on its face anyway!

 

[TRF_heineken]

Not a thing mentioned and friends with property there are still lauding the concept that there are no problems there!

That's what I thought as our public broadcaster, the SABC is being used as a pawn by the ANC to not show the violent protests that happened last week in Pretoria.

Here's a photo of a part of Atteridgeville that was burning last week, and it looks like a scene out of an Alien movie:

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

This latter bit maybe construed as Xenophobic,

Gotta ask: a disproportionate number of my friends there have, within the last couple of days, either experienced themselves or heard of someone close to them who's experienced some sort of "We voted, now get out my country" moment. At first i though, it was just a coincidence, but then i read things like these

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-racism_uk_576fe161e4b08d2c56396075

and have to ask, how common are these sort of things? I've been going to the UK regularly over the last years and i've never seen anything like this, but a female polish friend of mine has been told, twice in the last 2 days to leave the country by random strangers while minding her own business on the metro.

 

[ncurd]

Honestly the sentiment has been there for a long time by these people the problem with the vote is it's emboldened them to say what they think instead of keeping it to themselves.

I read this comment yesterday that explains it neatly.

"Not everyone who voted leave is a racist the problem is racists now think 52% of the country agree with them."

 

[Thingimubob]

Gotta ask: a disproportionate number of my friends there have, within the last couple of days, either experienced themselves or heard of someone close to them who's experienced some sort of "We voted, now get out my country" moment. At first i though, it was just a coincidence, but then i read things like these

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-racism_uk_576fe161e4b08d2c56396075

and have to ask, how common are these sort of things? I've been going to the UK regularly over the last years and i've never seen anything like this, but a female polish friend of mine has been told, twice in the last 2 days to leave the country by random strangers while minding her own business on the metro.

My sister summer it up quite well:

52% of the country is not racist. However, now the racists believe 52% of the country back them, emboldening them to do whatever the hell they want.

That's why we're seeing a rise in incidents like this. It's awful and needs to be stamped out asap.

EDIT @ncurd beat me too it!

 

[ncurd]

The biggest issue with migration and the pro-EU debate...we didn't engage in it. Instead of promoting the good things about migration and a positive picture we allowed to leave to beat us with a stick about it.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I can imagine 52% ain't xenophobes, but the thing is, it looks like it's still a considerable number of people who feel and act that way. Or is it that they are getting a disproportionate amount of media coverage?

The biggest issue with migration and the pro-EU debate...we didn't engage in it.

THIS.
The remain campaign focused, almost exclusively on economic issues. They completely failed to understand (or refused of acknowledge) what triggered people voting to leave.

 

[munstermuffin]

Dude, UK has it way better even with the whole Brexit thing going on than South Africa.

Are they even showing the violent protests and looting that is going on here in SA currently up there in the NH??

Not a single issue reported there. Obviously it's known tension still there over race and that only well known through the sport quota.

Media is a powerful tool though and it's a sad thing to say but if South Africa isn't financially a big contributor to this region through jobs and that then it's not cared about.
It's the same really regards suicide bombs go off regularly in Middle East but it's only really a major terror alert when in Europe.

And I am kind of shocked about South Africa as I have a good few friends here involved with rugby but also others who work in companies such as Element 6 here. Admittedly 90% white but not 1 person mentioned it.

 

[Peat]

Maybe, it's not the perception of those that left Labour, nor the perception of a hell of a lot of people that are currently supporting Corbyn, nor the perception of a lot of people who do not see the difference between Labour and Tories. Whether they are right or wrong doesn't really matter, politics is about perception.

And if the PLP were to arrange things so that a new leadership challenge occurred and Corbyn was not on the ballot paper for the party membership to vote for, well, the PLP will be perceived to be the enemy.

I know it isn't the perception.

That's why I'm telling you the perception is wrong and that the language you use feeds it and helps create the very thing you were worrying about in that post.

And yes, if Corbyn's name is not on the ballot paper, it won't make friends. Not that they'll make too many friends even if he is. Rightly, in a lot of ways. And things will continue to get worse. And the various parts of the left will continue to blame the other parts of the left. Its all very Python-esque.

 

[munstermuffin]

I know it isn't the perception.

That's why I'm telling you the perception is wrong and that the language you use feeds it and helps create the very thing you were worrying about in that post.

And yes, if Corbyn's name is not on the ballot paper, it won't make friends. Not that they'll make too many friends even if he is. Rightly, in a lot of ways. And things will continue to get worse. And the various parts of the left will continue to blame the other parts of the left. Its all very Python-esque.

But hasn't Corbyn still got massive support in party? Wasn't that massive protest outside Westminister last night for him to remain?

 

[ncurd]

I can imagine 52% ain't xenophobes, but the thing is, it looks like it's still a considerable number of people who feel and act that way. Or is it that they are getting a disproportionate amount of media coverage?

It's a complex situation some aren't 'racists' as in they don't believe that the people are inferior they just believe that the country is too full and we need expel those who weren't born here as a way alleviating the 'pressure'.

But then there are minor differences between Racism, Bigotry & Xenophobia. The last one is key news articles with hateful lies enter the national psyche and become truth they fear them not because they are different because they genuinely believe it will threaten their way of life.

I know someone (family member I'd rather not deal with) who might say something along these lines I wouldn't call them a racist but I have a lot of other choice words for them. But essentially they'll do it to deliberately cause a scene and then relay the story to others to cause another one and further arguments.

- - - Updated - - -

But hasn't Corbyn still got massive support in party? Wasn't that massive protest outside Westminister last night for him to remain?

Yes but not outside which is what a lot of Labour supporters fail to recognise. There's a reason why Blair in the 90's had to start his New Labour movement explaining the party had changed. They had to shake off a lot of stigma of views Corbyn holds dear, it's not the right of party disagree vehemently just they know that strong won't garner enough votes to win seats.