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2011 RWC- Pool B

Wait, wait, wait. Argentina now have great 10 and 12 options? They have Hernandez, admittedly a talented player, but him aside I wouldn't be too worried if I were Scottish. Contepomi is well into his 30's by now. In my opinion it's probably for the best that he left Leinster, he'd be lucky to get his game at 10 or 12 with the likes of Sexton, D'arcy and Fitzgerald around. As is he's struggled to establish himself at Toulon, I'll accept he was injured for a large part of last season by the way.

Hernández is not talented, he is outstanding. He was the worlds best flyhalf at Rugby World Cup. He has been out with back problems for over 10 months now. He is set to return soon, possibly this weekend for Racing Metro Paris. He will be playing flyhalf outside a good scrumhalf, Nicolas Durand and will be under orders to play a running game. This season will help him a lot. I guarantee he will be back to his best like in 2007.

I doubt Leinster would not play Contepomi but lets not get caught up in that. At Toulon he was bought in to play 10 and 12. He missed the first half of the season to injury and when he returned played at both 10, 12 and 21. The main reason he was not a regular starter was the silly European labour rules preventing more than 2 foreigners from playing. Toulon actually wanted Contepomi to get an Italian passport.

Contepomi will be 34 come Rugby World Cup 2007. Dan Parks will be 33. If you think Contepomi is past his best or is not up to playing test rugby any longer then you need to watch Argentina vs France from June.



In an interview today with Argentine site, rugbytime.com he commented on the losses to Scotland and the win vs France. "Con Escocia jugamos mal porque tuvimos problemas para adaptarnos a las nuevas normas y no hubo mucho tiempo de preparación. Ante Francia tuvimos un juego más `físico´ y se cometieron menos errores".

In English - "With Scotland we played bad because we had problems adapting to the new lase and didn´t have a lot of preperation time. Against France we had a more physical game and we made less mistakes ".

Scotland had played 5 tests in the 6N a few months earlier while Argentina had not played in seven months. Contepomi had not played a test for Argentina for 19 months. So, I cewrtainly agree with what he has to say. The losses vs Scotland did see Argentina heavily penalized and without referees who could speak Spanish. Credit to Scotland for playing well and doing what they needed to to win. A great accomplishment. However, they did not win by scoring tries and did not dominate at all. They won because Argentina played aweful rugby. No disrespect intended, but thats the way it was. Leading players did not perform.

You say that Santiago Fernández and Martín Rodriguez Gurruchaga are going to give you loads of depth at 10 and 12 but I have a fair few issues with that statement. Fernandez has been floating around for quite a few years now. It strikes me that if he was all he was made out to be he would have been signed up by now by one of the larger European clubs(he's 24 right?). The two boys have also been signed up by fairly average French teams. They won't be playing in the Heineken Cup this year and it's debatable whether they'll be starting.

Fernández debuted as a 22 year old vs Italy in November 2008. He was picked to give Argentina options to cover Hernández and Contepomi. He came on in the second half of that match. One week latter, he played 10 vs Ireland as both Hernández and Contepomi were ruled out as was Bosch. You can say he has been around for quite a few years now but thats not real. the guy is 24 and has landed a pro contract with an excellent club - Montpellier. He is playing 12 (as a starter) outside French flyhalf François Trinh-Duc. Two other Pumas play for the club. A pretty damn good deal for Fernández if you ask me. He had been approached in January by both the Stormers and the Western Force to play in the 2010 Super 14 but Montpellier started talks round the same time and ultimately got his signature.

Martín Rodriguez Gurruchaga signed for Stade Français which is his first pro contract. Obviously a club as prestigious as SF Paris see something in the guy if he can go from Rosario to Paris. He made the 22 first up which is not easy at all and is likely to be playing 15 ahead of Hugo Southwell in not too long. For a guy making his debut last November vs England, Wales and Scotland and to score all the points there must be something to this guy, and there is. he is a great fullback. He has world class potential. The fact he was able to play 12 to replace the injrued trio of Hernández-Contepomi-Bosch and do well speaks wonders for him. He won the match vs Scotland, with no experienced playmaking backs to direct him. He has ousted Agulla or the Pumas 15 shirt and did well in all 3 tests in Juen, inc the losses vs Scotland. Give him a season with SF Paris and he can only improve.



I would not call either team fairly average. SF were aweful last year but still made the Heineken Cup Quarter-Finals. Montpellier are as good as Ulster without question. Ulster make the Heineken Cup with ease as Ireland only have 4 teams.

On Marcelo Bosch, well the guy has two international caps. If that's the kind of 'outstanding' player who is going to make Argentina so formidable then I'd say Scotland aren't that worried..

This is a void argument. Bosch made his test debut as a 23 year old vs Italy in Mendoza. He played 10. He was already playing for Biarritz at this stage. He missed the Rugby World Cup as the coach opted to take Federico Todeschini to provide back up to Hernández and Contepomi. He played his next test in 2008 again vs Italy after missing the two tests vs Scotland because the French season had not finished. The final round took place on June 14 with the semi finals and final taking place on June 22 and 28. After that match he missed the November 2008 tests with injury which also saw him miss the June 2009 tests vs England. He had surgery to return for Biarritz only to then get badly injured once again. This meant he missed the November 2009 tests and June 2010 tests too. He had surgery once again and now is back playing for Biarritz.

In other words, 2 tests does not reflect on Bosch as a rugby player. Rather, it reflects on having knee and shoulder surgery.

[video=dailymotion;x2av3z]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2av3z_marcelo-bosch_sport[/video]

[video=dailymotion;xapv09]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xapv09_le-resume-du-match-bo-usap_sport#from=embed[/video]

So, in summation, I don't agree with your assessment of the Argentine 10-12 situation at all. In my opinion you have one truely exceptional player, an aging Contepomi who'll be coming off the back of a long top 14 season and has recently suffered a serious injury, two players who have only recently turned pro and a man with only two caps for his country at the age of 26. That wouldn't inspire me with confidence.

If you still think this is so let me know.

I'd also put it to you that you've seriously underrated the effectiveness of this Scottish pack. We can talk about backs and the like but if the forwards are unable to secure good, clean possession it's impossible for them to function (see Ireland vs Scotland in the Six nations). Scotland have probably the best backrow unit in the NorthernHemisphere and while Lobbe and Leguizamon are both exceptional players, I'd rate the Scottish backrow ahead of them as a unit. Their second row is more thana match for their Argentine counterparts and their front row is very forminable too. This Scotland team has recently taken scalps from Australia, Ireland and Argentina. They are a very efficant outfit and you'd dowell not to dismiss them so readily.

Without wanting to talk Scotland down I would like to point out that Albacete is the best secondrower in France and arguably the second best playing rugby after Matfield. Scelzo, Ledesma and Roncero continue to outplay French players in the Top 14 while the best loosehead prop in England in Ayerza who is also a Puma. Scotland are talented, not question there. I think they could win the Pool but doubt they will. I suspect they will lose to Argentina and to England. they did defeated Australia in 2009 but did not score a try and tackled for 60 minutes. In defeating Argentina they also failed to score tries. Same again for their draw vs England. They did well vs Wales and Ireland in the 6N, two teams with sub-par forwards. the game plan is pretty clear and I doubt either Argentina or England will lose.
 
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^Thanks for the great info Melhor Time - its always hard for me to follow the Argentina team and players. Looking through the team you suggested, I know most of the players reasonably well apart from the two halfbacks - what is the halfback situation like in Argentina? Has anyone established themselves since the departure of Pichot 2 or so years ago?
 
No player has been able to claim the halfback position as his own since Pichot. There are three players who have been used and all have at times been the number one choice. They are Nicolas Vergallo (aged 26), Agustin Figuerola (aged 25) and Alfredo Lalanne (aged 27).

Vergallo was the first choice initially and played 9 in 2008 and in the first test vs England in 2009 until being dropped following a poor performance in Manchester. He was replaced by Alfredo Lalanne for the return test in Salta and Lalanne had a very good match and in doing so claimed the 9 shirt as his own. He started vs England and Scotland in November 2009 but was rested vs Wales to give Figuerola a start. Vergallo did not get any game time at all.

Having established himself as the best 9, Lalanne was then injured following the first test loss to Scotland in Tucumán and so Phelan decided to use Figuerola for the second test and Vergallo in test vs France. Vergallo took his chance and played very well, totally outplaying Morgan Parra. So, now it appears that Vergallo is the first choice and certainly should keep his place. Figuerola is now down to third and needs something special to get back to the top.

Figuerola is arguably the most talented of the three but has been unable to perform good enough thus far for Los Pumas. He plays for CASI in Argentina while Lalanne plays for London Irish in England and Vergallo now plays for Toulouse in France. Vergallo played at 9 for the first match of the season on Friday and did very well. His move to Toulouse could have a massive influence on Los Pumas as he will develop tremendously from the club.



None of them have the command that Pichot had but all appear to be improving - Vergallo especially.
 
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Did Contemponi not play against Scotland in the latest tests?


@ Melhor time
You say Scotland won by not scoring tries, but they still won, and that is what counts.
You are very optimistic if you think recent debutants will transform into quality international players in the space of a season.

Im not looking for an arguement btw (my post seems a little, well arguementative to me)
 
People seem to forget the spanking that Argentina gave France just after the Scotland games, though!
 
Problem is that France took a spanking in every game this summer, so I'm not gonna read anythign into that game. The fact is Scotland beat them twice in Argentina, lack of gametime or not! Scotland's pack were more than a match for the Puma's, and that's often enough to win a game of rugby.

I have no idea who will make it out of group B, but at the rate Scotland are improving they've got every chance.

As for group D, I don't think Wales will have as much problems as people think. Were a million miles away from the team of 2007, where we played into Fiji's hands. Nowerdays we have a world class front 5, and by the time the WC rolls around our backrow will be much stronger (although 8 is a problem). We can shut the game down if we wish in the backs with the likes of Roberts and Bishop who won't miss a tackle all day. My biggest concern is how many players will we loose during the group stages? If Samoa or Tonga beat us, I'll cry and promply eat some tear soken humble pie.
 
Problem is that France took a spanking in every game this summer, so I'm not gonna read anythign into that game. The fact is Scotland beat them twice in Argentina, lack of gametime or not! Scotland's pack were more than a match for the Puma's, and that's often enough to win a game of rugby.

I have no idea who will make it out of group B, but at the rate Scotland are improving they've got every chance.

As for group D, I don't think Wales will have as much problems as people think. Were a million miles away from the team of 2007, where we played into Fiji's hands. Nowerdays we have a world class front 5, and by the time the WC rolls around our backrow will be much stronger (although 8 is a problem). We can shut the game down if we wish in the backs with the likes of Roberts and Bishop who won't miss a tackle all day. My biggest concern is how many players will we loose during the group stages? If Samoa or Tonga beat us, I'll cry and promply eat some tear soken humble pie.

I think that the Welsh tight-five looks very good at the moment - I've been particularly impressed by Bradley Davies. Who do you think will be the first choice loose-forward trio for Wales come RWC time? Obviously openside will be contested between Williams and Warburton, both who appear to be quality players. Who will play at 6 and 8 is the big question for me. In the recent internationals they used Jonathan Thomas at 6 and Ryan Jones at 8, and neither impressed me - Thomas seemed slow to me (though I understand he's been playing a lot at lock lately), while Jones seemed off form. Of the other options, Powell is very one dimensional, Gavin Thomas looked solid (though he is another 7), I wasn't overly impressed with McCusker, and I haven't seen much of Lydiate. I've always rated Dafydd Jones - I assume he's injured?

I agree that if Wales plays a tighter structured game (rather than the open game they played last time) they should be able to account for Fiji without too much trouble, as Fiji is generally not strong up front. I do think Wales could have trouble with Samoa however, as Samoa is reasonable strong up front, particularly with the addition of Anthony Perenise (who is a hugely under-rated prop). If Samoa can gain close to parity up front, they could cause all sorts of trouble, as their backline is stacked with attacking talent (though as you say, a Roberts/Bishop midfield will not be easy to penetrate).
 
People seem to forget the spanking that Argentina gave France just after the Scotland games, though!

People also seem to forget that the highly rated Argentine 07 team could only beat Scotland by 6 points. Scotland have come on leaps and bounds since then and I wouldn't say the same is true of Argentina.
 
Aye,
I'm not trying to take anything away from Scotland, they are a much improved team, and get better every year, but Argentina are being written off and unrightly so.
 
I think that the Welsh tight-five looks very good at the moment - I've been particularly impressed by Bradley Davies. Who do you think will be the first choice loose-forward trio for Wales come RWC time? Obviously openside will be contested between Williams and Warburton, both who appear to be quality players. Who will play at 6 and 8 is the big question for me. In the recent internationals they used Jonathan Thomas at 6 and Ryan Jones at 8, and neither impressed me - Thomas seemed slow to me (though I understand he's been playing a lot at lock lately), while Jones seemed off form. Of the other options, Powell is very one dimensional, Gavin Thomas looked solid (though he is another 7), I wasn't overly impressed with McCusker, and I haven't seen much of Lydiate. I've always rated Dafydd Jones - I assume he's injured?

I agree that if Wales plays a tighter structured game (rather than the open game they played last time) they should be able to account for Fiji without too much trouble, as Fiji is generally not strong up front. I do think Wales could have trouble with Samoa however, as Samoa is reasonable strong up front, particularly with the addition of Anthony Perenise (who is a hugely under-rated prop). If Samoa can gain close to parity up front, they could cause all sorts of trouble, as their backline is stacked with attacking talent (though as you say, a Roberts/Bishop midfield will not be easy to penetrate).

I think the Welsh backrow will be experemented with quite a bit over the coming season. Alot depends on the form of those players you mentioned. Jon Thomas and Ryan Jones had poor seasons, so let's see if they can up their game. Martyn Williams has said that having his first Summer and full pre-season in 7 years has done a world of good, and given him a chance to work on fitness which is essential to his game.

As for the yougsters. Lydiate is a hard grafting workhorse, but has been injured for a while. McCusker I thought was very good v NZ. He wasn't even heard of untill half way through last season, even for his region! He's got a big future I'm sure. Gatland's been quoted of saying that he thinks McCusker could make a great 8, so that might be a worthwile experiment. I think Warberton will be at either 6 or 7. If Martyn Williams regains top form, Warberton he'll slot in beside him to take some workload, but otherwise he'll be at 7.

So here's the options:

06 Sam Warberton / Dan Lydiate / Rob McCusker / Jon Thomas / Dafydd Jones
07 Martyn Williams / Sam Warberton
08 Ryan Jones / Jon Thomas / Rob McCusker / Joe Bearman

I don't think Powell will be involved unless Wasps can turn him around. Dafydd Jones could easily figure, but he usually takes a while to regain form after injury and he's been injured for almost a year! Bearman could step in to do a job at the WC. One of the best 8's in the Magners for the last few years, great ball carrier.

Plenty of options, not much time to find a combination that works.
 
Aye,
I'm not trying to take anything away from Scotland, they are a much improved team, and get better every year, but Argentina are being written off and unrightly so.

I wouldn't say they've been written off, merely that alot of people (including myself) would have Scotland ahead of them. Just out of curiosity, what does everyone make of Alan Jacobsen? I read somewhere that he's rated by the Sctoland management as being on par with Benn Robinson as the best loosie in the world. He's a man who's been living in the shadow of Euan Murray for quite some time now but the front row is a unit, not just a collection of individuals and everyone plays their part. Opinions?
 
I wouldn't say they've been written off, merely that alot of people (including myself) would have Scotland ahead of them. Just out of curiosity, what does everyone make of Alan Jacobsen? I read somewhere that he's rated by the Sctoland management as being on par with Benn Robinson as the best loosie in the world. He's a man who's been living in the shadow of Euan Murray for quite some time now but the front row is a unit, not just a collection of individuals and everyone plays their part. Opinions?

Jacobsen is a solid enough player. Part of a very effective front row, especially when Murray's at th. Always solid in the scrums, but rarely dominates his opposition number. Makes a few runs every now and then, but not all that prominent in the loose imo. I wouldn't have him anywhere need the best in the world, probably at a similar level to Paul James. Never struck me as the fittest of blokes as he tends to have a bit of a belly!
 
I think the Welsh backrow will be experemented with quite a bit over the coming season. Alot depends on the form of those players you mentioned. Jon Thomas and Ryan Jones had poor seasons, so let's see if they can up their game. Martyn Williams has said that having his first Summer and full pre-season in 7 years has done a world of good, and given him a chance to work on fitness which is essential to his game.

As for the yougsters. Lydiate is a hard grafting workhorse, but has been injured for a while. McCusker I thought was very good v NZ. He wasn't even heard of untill half way through last season, even for his region! He's got a big future I'm sure. Gatland's been quoted of saying that he thinks McCusker could make a great 8, so that might be a worthwile experiment. I think Warberton will be at either 6 or 7. If Martyn Williams regains top form, Warberton he'll slot in beside him to take some workload, but otherwise he'll be at 7.

So here's the options:

06 Sam Warberton / Dan Lydiate / Rob McCusker / Jon Thomas / Dafydd Jones
07 Martyn Williams / Sam Warberton
08 Ryan Jones / Jon Thomas / Rob McCusker / Joe Bearman

I don't think Powell will be involved unless Wasps can turn him around. Dafydd Jones could easily figure, but he usually takes a while to regain form after injury and he's been injured for almost a year! Bearman could step in to do a job at the WC. One of the best 8's in the Magners for the last few years, great ball carrier.

Plenty of options, not much time to find a combination that works.

Clearly there is enough talent in the loose-forwards - its just going to be a matter of whether they can find the right combination in time for the next RWC (and whether they get enough time together as a combination). I think number 8 is possibly a position they should experiment with - If Ryan Jones could get back to the sort of form he showed when he was touring New Zealand with the Lions (4-5 years ago) he'd be great, but I haven't been impressed with him for some time now. Perhaps one of the youngsters (McCusker or Lydiate) or Bearman (who I haven't seen, but heard good things about) should be given a chance during the end of year tests.
 
Our options at 8 are somewhat limited due to foreign players at two of the four regions; Rush at the Blues, and Lyons at the Scarlets. Bpth great players, who've given alot to the teams they're playing in, just unfortunate it's limiting gametime for welsh 8's. Lyons for example has started just about every game for the Scarlets since joining two seasons ago (I think), or it's at least close to that.

I think Bearman may be tried, however that won't be much more than a stop-gap solution, as he's into his 30's already. He's infact an Englishman (from Cornwall I think) who's elligeble for Wales through residency. He does seem quite committed to the Dragons and Welsh rugby, so no problems from me there. I class him as a running 8, quick, agile and explosive. He's not all that great at doing the dirty work, although much better in that regard than the likes of Powell. Lydiate is a blindside flanker only.

Another name to look out for in the neer future is a young bloke called Andreus Pretorius. He's originally from SA (as you might have guessed from the name), but has stated he wants to play for Wales. He's in the Cardiff Blues academy, and looks very promising. If Gatland is cunning he might throw a cap his way to make sure he doesn't decide to play for SA one day instead (not that I like that kinda ploy).

Finally, another Dragons youngster who impressed last season is Lewis Evans. Should be a good battle for the 8 shirt at the Dragons between him, Bearman and Faletau!

I feel we have suddenly got a stupid amout of choice at blindside (although a couple are still young), Warberton looks the real deal at 7, but 8 is a major problem. Ryan Jones is playing more like a 6, and I feel he's better suited to that role nowerdays as he get's through alot of hard graft and unseen work. He hasn't been carying well though, and that's what an 8 should be able to do all day long. I'm not sure why, as he's as quick as ever (performed some phenomenal cover tackles, tracking back and tackling wingers!), he seems to have the size, but has just lost that spark which was so prominent in 2005. He is a good captain though!
 
Hugo Ellis is another name to be thrown into the hat for Wales 8. If he has a strong start to the season I think he might make the autumn tests. Andreus Pretorius went to Millfield school, and plays lock / flanker so he is not an 8 although he could move there. Wales have options coming at 8 but how long before Gatland goes for something untested will remain to be seen.
 
I like the look Faletau and Hugo Ellis personally, some very promising forwards coming through the Dragons ranks! I see Pretorius as more of a second row or no.6 more than a no.8, so not too sure about him moving to 8. Then again, Dai Young was considering using him as the replacment for Rush before he decided he was staying. Would really like to see Bearman be given a crack at no.8 during the Autumn, he's been superb for the Dragons for years now and deserves a chance imo.
 
You mean Hugo Ellis the English player?
Didn't he play age-grade for England? Has he made himself avaiable for Wales oe is it just speculation because he's joined Newport?
 
Yup that's him Olyy. One of the main reasons for him moving to the Dragons was because he wants to play for Wales. Can't remember how he qualifies, Welsh parent?

Fair enough regarting Pretorious, I thought he was a 6/8 (as many are at his age). Certainly big and powerful enough to make the switch if the Blues feel that's where their strength is lacking (it certainly is from a Welsh perspective). I agree that there seems to be lots of young backrow players about to break through. By all accounts Ben Morgan, a youngster at the Scarlets looks promising. Had a stormer v Gloucester in their pre-season match just gone with some great running.

We haven't mentioned Turnbull yet who I rate highly. Never stops working. He needs to sort his dicipline out before he can be considered for Wales though. Although a bit of mongrel is always welcome.
 
Yup that's him Olyy. One of the main reasons for him moving to the Dragons was because he wants to play for Wales. Can't remember how he qualifies, Welsh parent?

Fair enough regarting Pretorious, I thought he was a 6/8 (as many are at his age). Certainly big and powerful enough to make the switch if the Blues feel that's where their strength is lacking (it certainly is from a Welsh perspective). I agree that there seems to be lots of young backrow players about to break through. By all accounts Ben Morgan, a youngster at the Scarlets looks promising. Had a stormer v Gloucester in their pre-season match just gone with some great running.

We haven't mentioned Turnbull yet who I rate highly. Never stops working. He needs to sort his dicipline out before he can be considered for Wales though. Although a bit of mongrel is always welcome.

Turnbull is an underrated player. I like him but I think he will fall under the radar.

Ellis played for Wales youth grades up to U16 and them moved and change allegiance to England. I like his brother to, the future is there for Wales its about bringing them through. Still hope the hype for Hugo Ellis will all be good come the start of the Mangers League.
 
Am I wrong in saying that there is another thread that discusses the general future of Welsh rugby?

Sorry if I come across as a moaning twat
 


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