[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

[Bada-Bing!]

I think with 46 players, it's clear that there's going to be a squad of 23 that will just play the game v the Crusaders and will not get near the test squad; why else would we need so many players. The Lions squad was 37 and they played 10 games, including the 3 tests. The danger with such a large squad is that there will be a lot of bored players, who know they have little chance of playing in the 3 tests unless injuries occur.

 

[Patchey]

I think with 46 players, it's clear that there's going to be a squad of 23 that will just play the game v the Crusaders and will not get near the test squad; why else would we need so many players. The Lions squad was 37 and they played 10 games, including the 3 tests. The danger with such a large squad is that there will be a lot of bored players, who know they have little chance of playing in the 3 tests unless injuries occur.

Well exactly, its just another example of how the messed up schedule has hurt us.

I mean do we need that many hookers? Of course not but because no one knew if Hartley would be fit we will now, presumably, have Ward and Webber in the first test, Hartley and Ward/Webber in the others, and Grey and LCD filling in midweek or maybe first test if someone gets a knock. There are two guy there who have gone 10,000 miles to play one non-international game and then carry water for the rest of the time.

 

[ratsapprentice]

There are two guy there who have gone 10,000 miles to play one non-international game and then carry water for the rest of the time.

I'm sure the 15k fee they receive for that will allow them to book a nice holiday then.

 

[Patchey]

You're beginning to sound a bit like Nick Easter!

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Just as long as we don't have a repeat of dwarf gate. It's whether those players not likely to get into the test squad start playing up and affect the culture of the squad as a whole, leading up to the test 2 and 3. There are a lot of young guys in this squad and it's up to the leadership group to really lay down the law of what is expected of them.

 

[Peat]

While totally not a fan of Alex Goode's, I feel people are overlooking his positioning and kicking game. It makes it very difficult for the opposition to pin us back through territorial kicking.

It is completely legitimate to look at a player doing well in the domestic league and say "We know he underperforms at international level and we see no reason to believe he has improved his game enough to change this, so we don't think he should be picked". This is the scenario with Ashton. The only thing he has different is a bit more confidence, I'd sadly bet on him having a bit less by the end of summer.

Finally - I don't think players will act up. They should all be doing their utmost to push them further up Lancaster's pecking order and maximising their chances of exploiting any lucky break. If a player does act up though, good. Better out there than at the World Cup.

 

[goodNumber10]

Read out of first test (concussion protocol) (Luatua comes in for him), Sam Cane out of entire series fractured knee.

Savea in for knee scans, possibly out.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/all-blacks/news/video.cfm?c_id=116&gal_cid=116&gallery_id=143383

 

[Patchey]

They'll just start Kaino at 8, which is ridiculous really. Casually replacing the best playing in the world with someone who is currently in better form...

Out back row is going to have to work overtime this series. There's probably a case to have Haskell in the squad after the first test just for his tackling.

 

[goodNumber10]

Kaino is no Kieran Read and it changes their attack pattern significantly.

In the middle of doing some analysis of this for my blog but essentially they split their forwards into three pods across the pitch, two punch groups and then Read roaming wide in the 13 channel - they tend to hit close then come wide to the other tram line in one or two phases. With Read either carrying there or securing the ball at the breakdown.

Kaino doesn't have that ability to float as wide as Read which means they'll move back to a more traditional flow pattern and look to bring his carrying power through the middle on.

Still think they are too powerful for us, but it's a big loss as they'd be looking to bring that kind of ball carrying through the middle late in the game to maintain momentum.

 

[Patchey]

Oh yeah its going to change the way they play without Read in the wide channel, but I've noticed that they do sometimes use Luatua out there (if he plays) and if not then Kaino is still a massive asset. He is so strong and powerful, especially considering he isn't Billy sized. Anyone who hasn't should watch the highlights of the Blues game last weekend just to watch Kaino carry three defender over the line to score. The only way to stop him is to chop him down, which is why Haskell might be effective if he starts this weekend.

 

[goodNumber10]

he is utterly immense, honestly i think my perfect backrow would be Read at 8 with Kaino at 6, and Dussatoir at 7.

Having said that, it seems almost ridiculous to actually refer to the AB's being weakened by his inclusion, but I honestly think Read is that important to them. Weakness is relative though

Good point about Haskell, he certainly does make his tackles, and if they are more direct that will suit JH down to a T.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I would have Vito @ 8 who is in great form as well.

Mind you I would start Kaino at 6.

6. Kaino
7. Mccaw
8. Vito
Bench: Messam.

fits NZ current game plan.

got to feel for NZ lack of depth starting to show.
Think NZ should use the first test to bring kaino back in.

 

[Patchey]

Over on the NZ thread they're predicting 6. Vito 7. McCaw 8. Kaino, so the same players just different balance at the set piece.

Thinking about our back row, whether it's Haskell or Kvesic who starts we are going to have three guys who can make tackles all day. I'd love to see Robshaw at 6 but I suspect it'll be 6. Haskell 7. Robshaw 8. Morgan with Kvesic benching (please not Johnson!).

We know Robshaw can tackle until the cows come home, Morgan is less known for his tackling but will give us a lot of power at the ruck, Kvesic can both ruck very well and tackle the big guys without fail and Hask's chopping style of tackling is suited to bringing down the powerful guys like Vito and Kaino. In a way I think we're stronger without Wood, which is problematic because I can't see him being dropped (and neither does he deserve to be IMO).

 

[goodNumber10]

I'm a Tom Wood fan, but i've had my doubts creeping over the last year or so - he loses ball in contact a lot, seems to also have quite a short fuse and seems to be getting sucked into silly off the ball stuff a it too much.

Nothing major but i'm just noticing more flaws in his game as we go along.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Over on the NZ thread they're predicting 6. Vito 7. McCaw 8. Kaino, so the same players just different balance at the set piece.

Thinking about our back row, whether it's Haskell or Kvesic who starts we are going to have three guys who can make tackles all day. I'd love to see Robshaw at 6 but I suspect it'll be 6. Haskell 7. Robshaw 8. Morgan with Kvesic benching (please not Johnson!).

We know Robshaw can tackle until the cows come home, Morgan is less known for his tackling but will give us a lot of power at the ruck, Kvesic can both ruck very well and tackle the big guys without fail and Hask's chopping style of tackling is suited to bringing down the powerful guys like Vito and Kaino. In a way I think we're stronger without Wood, which is problematic because I can't see him being dropped (and neither does he deserve to be IMO).

I think most of us Kiwis think it will be Messam in there at 6. Were it going to be those three players you've listed then Kaino and Vito would certainly be swapped around.

 

[TheSaffycen]

What wood offers us though is a great line out option. We take that away and suddenly the lineout is an weakness instead of a strength, i don't know abut Kvesic or Haskells lineout game but judged on the sizes of both (Kvesic a bit short/ Haskell too bulky)

 

[DomWhite9]

I really hope Cipriani gets the nod. A Danny Care and Danny Cipriani half back partnership could be special.

 

[Patchey]

I think most of us Kiwis think it will be Messam in there at 6. Were it going to be those three players you've listed then Kaino and Vito would certainly be swapped around.

I could have sworn of seen Vito mentioned as a starter. But then I went back a read the thread again and yeah, Messam at 6 and Vito on the bench.

Shows how much I know! Either way that's a dam good back row.




Wood is a great line out option and a real leader as well, and he does lots of the dirty, nitty gritty work a around the pitch (that could describe our back row as a whole tbh). I just don't know of that's going to be enough going forwards to keep him in the XV.

Haskell looks so sharp right now and is the most experienced player we have apart from Hartley (who has four more caps than him?) and Kvesic is going to burst through eventually, when he gets some game time. Launchbury, Lawes, Parking and Attwood all offer us good line out options at the front and middle and I've seen Robshaw and maybe Kvesic throw up at the back (I think), so he isn't irreplaceable at the set piece. Where does Wood fit in with them in the picture?

 

[TheSaffycen]

I would say are back row depth goes like this
6- Wood/Haskell/Croft/Johnson
7-Robshaw/Kvesic/Wallace?/Fraser?
8-Vunipola/Morgan/Ewers
But i think Wood can easily be overtaken by Haskell and if Croft is on form then he might struggle getting in to the 23.

 

[Patchey]

I keep forgetting Croft exists! If Kvesic gets some game time on this tour then the actually back row depth we'l have (as opposed to potential, untested depth) is outrageous!