Discussion in 'International Test Matches' started by TheSaffycen, Sep 15, 2014.
Burgess in at 7 !
A big fan of Robshaw but I feel quite excited by the opportunities this offers. Shame most options will go unlooked at.
Overwhelmingly likely is that we'll see 6. Wood 7. Haskell 8. Morgan. The problem here is going to be the bench; It'll be Vunipola or Clark, neither of which are good bench options.
Out for only 4 weeks max.
He'll be fine.
If it wasn't a world cup year I would like to look at:
I share this opinion!
Why do people rate Haskell? What does he bring? He might be the best example of "jack of all trades, master of none" I can think of in the England squad.
No one really even says this any more. It was probably right two years ago when Sinbad and Olly Morgan were around, Freddie and Twelvetrees in the form of their lives, Sharples on the edge of the England XV and Trinder available for at least a few games a season.
Things have been particularly awkward for us so far this season. Between Sinbad retiring right at the start of the season, Cook picking up an injury that'll keep him out for months, Trinder injured in the second game of the season and not seen since, and Laidlaw, Hook, May and Twelvetrees going away for internationals, we've basically had to put out a second-string player in every position 9-15! And now Robson wants out.
Lots of strengthening needed in the backline for Glos.
Also, Bath's backline is pretty clearly the best around right now.
You could conceivably come up with a very competitive team made up MOSTLY of players who took little to no part in the autumn series (if at all), who, touch wood, should all be fit or up for selection again for the six nations opener (captain obvious maybe):
4. Launchbury (yeah OK, he played in the first game)
8. Morgan (only started the last two)
9. Youngs ('' '')
10. Ford ('' '')
14. Watson ('' '')
15. Pennell (fallen off the radar somewhat... injured?)
Now lets compare it to the starting XV from the first test against New Zealand:
M Brown, S Rokoduguni, B Barritt, K Eastmond, J May, O Farrell, D Care; J Marler, D Hartley, D Wilson, D Attwood, C Lawes, T Wood, C Robshaw, B Vunipola.
Imo there is not a huge amount between these two sides- if at all. So in a game of possibles V's probables who wins???
Also my composite dream team:
6. Ewers (because we need another ball carrier imo)
7. Robshaw (would deff like to see kvesic against Italy and Scotland)
Bench: Hartley (if line-out goes awry), Marler, Brookes, Parling, Kvesic, Care?, Eastmond (Slade is 10 cover), Watson
I think the bench should be about impact players, hence Brookes and Eastmond over Wilson and Farrell.
Front row changes are pending the form of the three named. The scrum would IMO be equal, (if not slightly improved), but there is a massive improvement in open play (Tom Youngs especially- if he can get a serviceable line-out going > Hartley).
Second row, Launch is a shoe in for me, however I think that with Atwood the scrum is benefited and the maul has suddenly become a potent weapon for England (coincidence? I think not). I am tempted to put Parling in to shore up the linout with Youngs playing- I am worried we might be a bit lightweight though if I did.
Back row, I would love to see a Ewers, Kvesic, Morgan combination given a go.... potentially line-out options are diminished, but 3 very good ball carriers (which we realy need) and one proper poacher. Robshaw is undroppable on current form though.
B Youngs looked good for Leicester (no other viable choices atm though), Ford is looking really good for Bath though so he is nailed on.
Manu at inside centre and Slade at outside centre..... what say you? in theory there is no reason why not- Wales, NZ and SA operate the battering ram at IC.... I think Tuilagi played at 12 for the lions. RE the passing/distribution role, throw the miss passes and get the wingers coming in field also.
Slade is the form centre in the premiership and must be given a go. Ford putting Tuilagi through holes and getting offloads away.... Slade is a good defender and is a great kicking option + an intelligent player. It surely can't be worse than the dross we've been served up so far in the centers, I realy think its worth a punt.
We would have Youngs, Ewers, Morgan and Tuilagi as four potent ball carriers to give us front foot ball (which we have been severely lacking so far), Cole, Launch and Kvesic are good at the breakdown, while Ewers frankly does the clearing-out-the-rucks 'dirty work' far better than Wood can.
^ Are you me?
I agree with pretty much everything you said.
I mean, I'd take Care over Youngs if Care shows up really well in the next few rounds. I also wouldn't really consider Tom Youngs unless his darts were accurate. (I think the catch and drive is too powerful a weapon to be messing up with poor throws.) I'd also like to see Cole prove himself over a few more games (in theory I'd definitely want him to start though). But these are minor differences really.
That is something to do with England because at Leicester he was top of the lineout success rate.
Yeah scrumhalf is a real issue at the moment, as an English scrum half you can seemingly have only two of the following: good passing game, good kicking game, running threat, good game management.
I realy like T Youngs and think he is realy dynamic around the field (basically the antithesis of Hartley), but I agree, his throwing has to be up to scratch or it is a no go.
^^ yeah, I think he may have been unfairly blamed for some of the line-out mishaps for England in the past, i.e. most have not been poor throws per se, but poor communication and bad jumping.
tbf, players often go through rough patches with their darts and it's not too much of a reflection on their actual ability. I remember Hartley had a tough period in the year before the 2011 WC and ended up losing out to Steve Thompson for it. Definitely wouldn't say that Hartley is a bad thrower in the years since. Came back very strong from his wobbles.
So maybe it's a historical problem for Tom Youngs, and it won't be a problem whatsoever. Just a little thing that I'm worried about and hope he'll prove me wrong.
He just needs to be coached by Sarries for a couple of years Look how well Brits came on with his set piece when he came here.
But in all seriousness Youngs is good but I don't rate his open play as much as others on here do. I think it's just because Hartley's inability an intl' in the open, Webber has done very well with his handling and I think that he works better with a more complete pack. Youngs is very much I will run as quickly as I can at the nearest defender but wont go through them, it might tie in defenders but I would rather Yeandle/LCD or George. If everyone is fit
1.Corbisiero 2.Webber 3.Cole 4.Attwood 5.Lawes 6.Robshaw (a man can dream) 7.Kvesic 8.Morgan 9.Care 10.Ford 11.May 12.Eastmond 13.Joseph 14.Rokoduguni 15.Brown
16.George 17.Marler 18.Wilson 19.Launchbury 20.Ewers 21.Robson 22.Cipriani 23.Tuilagi
My reasoning in the front row is that the starting lot are the most mobile and the best defenders, the bench is a monster scrummaging unit that against replacements and tired legs will shift them 3 meters back. The back row is brilliant in defence and Kvesic and Robshaw have great handling skills. Would we lack a carrying player like we do now though ? The backs pick themselves, with Tuilagi at 23 he can cover 11,12,13,14 Cips can cover 10/15/14 if need be.
As much as I love the bath centre pairing, I think that they coupled with Ford are a bit lightweight for an international midfield.Tuilagi should start as he is currently the only player in the backline that has shown to cause problems for top 3 sides.
Just gonna throw out the thought that it might be time to close this thread and start a 6N thread.
p.s. I like yaboy's team but feels it has enough dynamism in the loose that I'd take Hartley as the most secure set-piece hooker, albeit slightly reluctantly.
I also believe catch and drive actually strengthens Youngs place in the team; he is very safe to the front, his wobbles frequently came when throwing to the back. A catch and drive team can work off front ball, it's teams that look to play off the lineout that dislike front ball more.
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