[2016 Rugby Championship] Argentina v South Africa (27/08/2016)

[George Ford]

Are we really talking about the ref?
Come on people.

What's the word coming from the Argies camp, is Hourcade sticking to the same team which did duty, or will we see a few 7s guys coming back? He can ask AC's predecessor a thing or 2 (or 4) about almost doesn't count. I'm sure whoever will be playing will relish this opportunity to stick it back to the Boks and will want to make last year's victory in Durban not look like a one-off.

However, although Los Pumas are well worth their weight at home, I'd still bet on the Boks to win this one if they quite misfiring.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

It is a massive part of the game though it cannot be denied surely.

That's not what i meant, but i suspect you know that. It can have a massive impact but, and i hope you'll agree, you don't know in advance whether that will be the case nor which side he'll be favouring.

There is a difference in our win ratio with and without French referees of more than 30%. A bit more than mere perception and anomoly IMO.

Not gonna argue those statistics, as arguing facts is simply nonsense, but that can be due to a plethora of factors, opposition being the most obvious one, location a close second. Last two were against NZ and Japan. I don't think you can blame him for either loss.

Let me give you another fact: we are the only SR and TRC team that has played every single game without ever having neither a local ref nor a ref that was fluent on our language. I am not going to go as far as several of my countrymen do and argue that refs have ****ed up lately, but if you're going to pick a team and claim they've been/will be favoured by biased refereeing, Argentina ain't that team.

I am not saying the ref won't **** it up. What i am saying is, lets at least have the courtesy of waiting till he does until we lay the smack on him.
You know me enough to know i will have no problem admitting we won because of him if we do. My word on it.
Cheers and good luck.

- - - Updated - - -

What's the word coming from the Argies camp, is Hourcade sticking to the same team which did duty, or will we see a few 7s guys coming back? He can ask AC's predecessor a thing or 2 (or 4) about almost doesn't count. I'm sure whoever will be playing will relish this opportunity to stick it back to the Boks and will want to make last year's victory in Durban not look like a one-off.

However, although Los Pumas are well worth their weight at home, I'd still bet on the Boks to win this one if they quite misfiring.

I expect the team to be pretty much the same. Moroni is back thou, that should help (he was out as he was resting after Rio's 7s).
Regarding the one-off thing, i think that's not really important and we're past that. The overall sentiment i see is that we believe lost it ourselves. We had RSA against the ropes and couldn't finish them (nor hold them) off. Personally, i think the team and players should have looked at the Irish tour games. I couldn't help thinking about the second game against Ireland while i was watching the last 20 minutes. The difference was one was in Joburg while we played in Durban.
Not trying to take anything away from RSA, but the mistakes we made in the last 20 minutes are perceived more along the lines of unforced ones. We need to correct that if we want to take the Pumas to the next level and it is taking us a monumental amount of time to do so. Oddly enough, i haven't heard much about our poor scrumming, which is what worries me the most.

 

[CarferFragen]

Waiting on line-ups and ref to be appointed before I call it.

Referee - Jerome Garces (France)
Assistant Referee 1 - Glen Jackson (New Zelaand)
Assistant Referee 2 - Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO - George Ayoub (Australia)

 

[Sker]

Hard one to call, I want to say it's going to be close (especially if Psdt and Kriel starts) but I don't know...

We need a tactical kicker at 10 to gain us territory (not useless up and unders, but kicks for touch) ala Butch James circa 2007. We used to be quite good at this and now... surprisingly it's NZ who's doing that pretty damn well (okay granted I'm going by how they played last year)

Hmm..

Boks by 5 - 7

 

[TRF_heineken]

Hard one to call, I want to say it's going to be close (especially if Psdt and Kriel starts) but I don't know...

We need a tactical kicker at 10 to gain us territory (not useless up and unders, but kicks for touch) ala Butch James circa 2007. We used to be quite good at this and now... surprisingly it's NZ who's doing that pretty damn well (okay granted I'm going by how they played last year)

Hmm..

Boks by 5 - 7

With the interview they had with Faf after the match, he said that it was a tactic that Elton should kick like that in the first 20 minutes, and it didn't pay off, and then they decided that Faf should rather do the box kicks from the ruck instead, and that worked better. But I think we shouldn't go for the up and under option, especially if we have Habana and Combrink on the wings. We should rather go for the corners and maul it up.

The up and under tactic doesn't work so well as it did in the past, and since the referees are extra strict in that area it's just a liability for our chasers to compete. I'd rather have 15 men on the field throughout the whole match, than having 14 men and maybe one try attempt from a kick-chase.

 

[WaterboySA]

Why do they have the urge to kick?Because the two centers aren't worth ****?Why put them in the team then?

I think there is a big chance that Arg can take this game. What worries me is the constant kicking.If you can't compete for the high ball, why kick?That sounds like the old SA game....kick and hope the guy knocks the ball.Slow breakdown.Faf feeling the need to be everywhere, and thus being late at the rucks. He got into the team for being quick to the ball. I would rather take a close loss to Argentina than a 50 point loss against the AB's, hope they stop this senseless kicking immediately.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Why do they have the urge to kick?Because the two centers aren't worth ****?Why put them in the team then?

I think there is a big chance that Arg can take this game. What worries me is the constant kicking.If you can't compete for the high ball, why kick?That sounds like the old SA game....kick and hope the guy knocks the ball.Slow breakdown.Faf feeling the need to be everywhere, and thus being late at the rucks. He got into the team for being quick to the ball. I would rather take a close loss to Argentina than a 50 point loss against the AB's, hope they stop this senseless kicking immediately.

To be honest, the stats show in the past 3 years that the team that kicks the most, wins the match. So I understand why they kick, it's just that the execution isn't 100%. I think that Elton should take responsibility here, his confidence took a massive knock in the Super Rugby final and he still had a hangover about it last week. Whether the trend continues or if he has shrugged it off, is the big question, and I think AC is the type of coach that will drop him if he thinks he's not on par.

But let's not take anything away from the Argies either, they came to win that last match. They were fired up and they played out of their skin. Their back 3 especially were pertty good on both attack and defence. That made our performance look even worse that what it perhaps was.

 

[WaterboySA]

I understand that. But then you kick with purpose, not just putting the ball in the air and hope that the other team makes mistakes?This must be practiced. You put the ball in the air against NZ and Aus, you lose the ball. And stats don't mean much if that team is NZ....they win the game anyways. Kick or no kick, lol....

 

[TRF_heineken]

Bok Team has been announced and added to the OP.

Just one change to the starting line-up with Vincent Koch coming in at 3 for the injured Redelinghuys.

On the bench, Morne Steyn comes in for Juan De Jongh

 

[saulan]

As I said in the previous thread, this is the match I fear the most in international rugby for the Boks as a supporter. I'm not going to make a call. This one is anyone's game.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

That's not what i meant, but i suspect you know that. It can have a massive impact but, and i hope you'll agree, you don't know in advance whether that will be the case nor which side he'll be favouring.


Not gonna argue those statistics, as arguing facts is simply nonsense, but that can be due to a plethora of factors, opposition being the most obvious one, location a close second. Last two were against NZ and Japan. I don't think you can blame him for either loss.

Let me give you another fact: we are the only SR and TRC team that has played every single game without ever having neither a local ref nor a ref that was fluent on our language. I am not going to go as far as several of my countrymen do and argue that refs have ****ed up lately, but if you're going to pick a team and claim they've been/will be favoured by biased refereeing, Argentina ain't that team.

I am not saying the ref won't **** it up. What i am saying is, lets at least have the courtesy of waiting till he does until we lay the smack on him.
You know me enough to know i will have no problem admitting we won because of him if we do. My word on it.
Cheers and good luck.

- - - Updated - - -


I expect the team to be pretty much the same. Moroni is back thou, that should help (he was out as he was resting after Rio's 7s).
Regarding the one-off thing, i think that's not really important and we're past that. The overall sentiment i see is that we believe lost it ourselves. We had RSA against the ropes and couldn't finish them (nor hold them) off. Personally, i think the team and players should have looked at the Irish tour games. I couldn't help thinking about the second game against Ireland while i was watching the last 20 minutes. The difference was one was in Joburg while we played in Durban.
Not trying to take anything away from RSA, but the mistakes we made in the last 20 minutes are perceived more along the lines of unforced ones. We need to correct that if we want to take the Pumas to the next level and it is taking us a monumental amount of time to do so. Oddly enough, i haven't heard much about our poor scrumming, which is what worries me the most.

TBH my comment was mostly meant in jest. In SA we've built up this thing about French referees since Joubert cost France the 2011 RWC. Mostly its a joke but it is odd how disproportianately we lose under them. Even against Japan the loss wasn't due to the ref per se but our teams do struggle with taking advantage of how they tend to handle the breakdown. No, Japan was due the ref but to their commitment, tackling techniqe, our 1-off running, simple bad luck and poor selections.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I think the Boks will win by 9 points...

That's my prediction. I like the fact that we're keeping continuity in the team and not making wholesale changes.

Also the selection of Steyn on the Bench suggests that AC is warning Elton to shape up or get booted...

 

[unrated]

I dont think Juan de Jongh deserved to be in the lineup. But i was impressed with his brief showing against Argentina. That one hand off was good... So i was a bit surprised to see Morne. You can bet we are going to approach this game the same way we did vs Argentina in the world cup. Win at all costs and play some technical rugby. Not necessarily bad as it would be a huge blow to our championship hopes if we lost.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I dont think Juan de Jongh deserved to be in the lineup. But i was impressed with his brief showing against Argentina. That one hand off was good... So i was a bit surprised to see Morne. You can bet we are going to approach this game the same way we did vs Argentina in the world cup. Win at all costs and play some technical rugby. Not necessarily bad as it would be a huge blow to our championship hopes if we lost.

How I read the bench last week was AC was worried about his centres performing and wanted back-up for Goosen in case he gets injured. So Elton's back-up was Goosen with De Jongh backing up the centres and Jesse Kriel Backing up the wings and Goosen.

This time, Steyn is out and out cover for Elton, and Jesse covers the rest. Which makes me think that Elton's days are numbered.

 

[unrated]

How I read the bench last week was AC was worried about his centres performing and wanted back-up for Goosen in case he gets injured. So Elton's back-up was Goosen with De Jongh backing up the centres and Jesse Kriel Backing up the wings and Goosen.

This time, Steyn is out and out cover for Elton, and Jesse covers the rest. Which makes me think that Elton's days are numbered.

Regardless of how off form Jantjies might be he has a higher potential than Morne. If Jantjies played to his best he would be better than morne at his current best and i feel morne is only in the squad as a safe option but he really is not the guy to lead us to silverware (not 2009 morne that one was a one year wonder ) so the only guy i would drop Jantjies for in our current situation is Goosen. With Goosen playing at 10 and Jesse playing at 15. Unfortunately this would leave us without decent fullback cover. Thats why i dont think Jantjies will be dropped in 2016 atleast untlil Lambie and Pollard comes back.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

If Jantjies played to his best he would be better than morne at his current best and i feel morne is only in the squad as a safe option but he really is not the guy to lead us to silverware (not 2009 morne that one was a one year wonder ) so the only guy i would drop Jantjies for in our current situation is Goosen.

But aren't both temporary fixes in a way? I mean, i'd rate Lambie and Pollard ahead of either and precisely because of that, if i had to pick between Janties and Steyn i'd pick however is having a better day instead of deciding based on who has more potential.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

But aren't both temporary fixes in a way? I mean, i'd rate Lambie and Pollard ahead of either and precisely because of that, if i had to pick between Janties and Steyn i'd pick however is having a better day instead of deciding based on who has more potential.

I'm a bit on the fence on this one. I do rate Pollard as our long term pivot and Lambie our 2nd best. But they aren't available.

Here's where I can't make up my mind. On the one hand I think Steyn might be the better option for this particular match but then again I see the value of giving Jantjies as much game time as possible for a combination of maybe settling his nerves (if that is what the issue is), having a young (enough) 3rd option going forward as injuries are a sad reality since Goosen seems to be seen as filling in at 15 which is good IMO since we don't have the depth of test quality in that position that we do at 10. I don't want to see Le Roux back and beyond him its basically only Jesse Kriel and Goosen with test experience. We could move Combrinck there but we are struggling for wingers as well so probably not. My hope is Kriel and Goosen can between them step up to give us some presence at the back while Warrick Gelant develops as a 3rd choice, possibly with a shot at wing for the test side or maybe even pushing for a start at 15.

Our major concern is the form of our centers and the fact that they aren't working well together. TBF I think they *could* work but we've not seen De Allende's play making side for a god long while. As is it looks like we are better served without them in the backline as our tries came off guys like De Jager and Habana having the ball move through the hands rather than our centers who aren't that steady in defence either. A lot of work or new faces are needed there.

 

[WaterboySA]

But aren't both temporary fixes in a way? I mean, i'd rate Lambie and Pollard ahead of either and precisely because of that, if i had to pick between Janties and Steyn i'd pick however is having a better day instead of deciding based on who has more potential.

YES thank you. I think Pollard will take a while to get in the team again after the long injury problems, but once fit, Jantjes won't stand a chance.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Regardless of how off form Jantjies might be he has a higher potential than Morne. If Jantjies played to his best he would be better than morne at his current best and i feel morne is only in the squad as a safe option but he really is not the guy to lead us to silverware (not 2009 morne that one was a one year wonder ) so the only guy i would drop Jantjies for in our current situation is Goosen. With Goosen playing at 10 and Jesse playing at 15. Unfortunately this would leave us without decent fullback cover. Thats why i dont think Jantjies will be dropped in 2016 atleast untlil Lambie and Pollard comes back.

But we won't know how Morne will play under AC. The last 10 years we saw Morne play for SA and the Bulls he had the same coach, in Heyneke Meyer. And before HM became the coach at the Bulls, Morne was used as a centre and a fullback, and he was and still is a great distributor. But under HM they used the same tactics and Morne did what was expected of him.

For all we know, under AC, Morne could become the running flyhalf he once was, and then add his kicking abilities, and he has a real shot at being better than Jantjies. I like Jantjies, but his position is so important that we can't carry him in every test, and apart from the third test against Ireland he has been truly dire in the bok jersey. He has to shape up or GTFO. Plain and simple.

 

[George Ford]

Think of it this way: If Steyn had/has to start, we will be assured of him fielding at least 4 out of 5 attempts at penalty goals within a 55m range. That's 12 points in the bag. If we had that kind of assurance last week we never would've been under pressure and in return to a certain extent have kept Argentina in the game. But we have to back Elton at pivot, because at the end of the day he passed the test and he is the best in the country at current.

In most of the close tests (such as last week), the halfbacks and more so the flyhalf can and should control the game (Naas) because at any given time during the match he can decide on his teams territory. Thank heavens for a player like Faf De Klerk who always takes the pressure off Jantjies, but this shouldn't be the case. I think Gavin Rich's latest article puts the nail on the head as he attributes Jantjies spell of mixed bags to his confidence. He falls off the wagon way too easy, whether it be a missed attempt at goal, missed tackle, or even a bad up-and-under hoist, he clearly succumbs to the pressure too easy.

I'm sure he felt a bit of the pendulum swinging his way when he heard Pollard being out for the whole year and furthermore when Pat didn't play much, so he knew he was a shoe in to wear the Bok 10 by just putting together a couple of consistent performances for the Lions which he did, but carrying that standard over to test level still prompts a question and you bet Morne Steyn is waiting to save the day with one of those long haulers.

It's one thing to say the game gets won up front, but if your flyhalf doesn't pitch then it won't work so much. This game is an even bigger test for Elton as his performance out of South Africa tends to drop and I really hope he can pull it together as we really have no other options at 10.