[2020 Six Nations] England vs Ireland (23/02/20)

[willutalk]

Interesting encounter this! Despite their pool stage results, Ireland had quite a mediocre World Cup losing against the ABs, a team who they've proven that they can beat, and so far an winning start in the 6N. England on the other hand showed promise up to the WC final and now seem a little undercooked and deflated. They are very different sides to when they played last so it's anyones game really.

From an England point of view, of course the banter/speculation about the iffy EJ selections will arise, I've been intensely critical of his selections as of late. But my main questions are of his 33 man squad missing out key selections

1) Genge (Think he has the guts and the mentality that is needed)
2) George (Continuity with hookers is essential, dealt well with the horrendous conditions at Murrayfield so a solid pick)
3) Sinkler (Incredible skills)
4) Kruis (Quite possibly best lock in the country I think)
5) Itoje (Hasn't had a great run as of late but provides great moments of brilliance)
6) Curry (Despite being heavily criticised, he's been impressive at playing 8 for someone who isn't naturally suited to the position, think he could do with a switch back to flanker)
7) Underhill (MOM performance up in the Ed, just so very solid)
8) Earl (Think he's got a good passion and he's actually an 8!)
9) Youngs (Not much between Youngs and Heinz really, but he didn't kick it it on the full against Scotland!)
10) Ford (Ford Farrell axis seems to 'work' neither playing amazingly, replying on one might be a risk)
11) May (Flattered us against France, a true something from nothing player, definitely international quality)
12) Farrell (Ford Farrell axis seems to 'work' neither playing amazingly, replying on one might be a risk)
13) JJ (A slightly undercooked recently but solid in defence and I think he's got that flare and speed to create breaks that England desperately need)
14) Thorley (I think Daly has been played in the wing too much, isn't he really a centre? Played poorly against Scotland and France IMHO Time to get an actual winger on and time to get Thorley on!)
15) Furbank (Need to give some more time to get used to this role)
16) LCD (Only other choice)
17) Mako (brings an intensity in ball carrying, Englands blue print has required a bit of Vunipola magic)
18) Stuart (Needs more essential time to get used to test match rugger)
19) Launchbury (Really ace lock, think he deserves a start but would be good to bring him on to have an impact once the Sarries combo have done their time)
20) Lawes (Provides impact just when the forwards will need an extra oomph)
21) Ludlam (Not sure about him but he's got the passion to up the intensity, impact sub)
22) Heinz (Touch on a sore subject here, really not much between him and Youngs, mediocrity)
23) Devoto (Always rated Devoto, though think he could do with more essential time to get used to test match rugger)

 

[Jashay]

1) Genge (Think he has the guts and the mentality that is needed)
2) George (Continuity with hookers is essential, dealt well with the horrendous conditions at Murrayfield so a solid pick)
3) Sinkler (Incredible skills)
4) Kruis (Quite possibly best lock in the country I think)
5) Itoje (Hasn't had a great run as of late but provides great moments of brilliance)
6) Curry (Despite being heavily criticised, he's been impressive at playing 8 for someone who isn't naturally suited to the position, think he could do with a switch back to flanker)
7) Underhill (MOM performance up in the Ed, just so very solid)
8) Earl (Think he's got a good passion and he's actually an 8!)
9) Youngs (Not much between Youngs and Heinz really, but he didn't kick it it on the full against Scotland!)
10) Ford (Ford Farrell axis seems to 'work' neither playing amazingly, replying on one might be a risk)
11) May (Flattered us against France, a true something from nothing player, definitely international quality)
12) Farrell (Ford Farrell axis seems to 'work' neither playing amazingly, replying on one might be a risk)
13) JJ (A slightly undercooked recently but solid in defence and I think he's got that flare and speed to create breaks that England desperately need)
14) Thorley (I think Daly has been played in the wing too much, isn't he really a centre? Played poorly against Scotland and France IMHO Time to get an actual winger on and time to get Thorley on!)
15) Furbank (Need to give some more time to get used to this role)
16) LCD (Only other choice)
17) Mako (brings an intensity in ball carrying, Englands blue print has required a bit of Vunipola magic)
18) Stuart (Needs more essential time to get used to test match rugger)
19) Launchbury (Really ace lock, think he deserves a start but would be good to bring him on to have an impact once the Sarries combo have done their time)
20) Lawes (Provides impact just when the forwards will need an extra oomph)
21) Ludlam (Not sure about him but he's got the passion to up the intensity, impact sub)
22) Heinz (Touch on a sore subject here, really not much between him and Youngs, mediocrity)
23) Devoto (Always rated Devoto, though think he could do with more essential time to get used to test match rugger)

I'd be perfectly happy with that set of forwards, although I think you still start Mako unless you're expecting to face a really good tighthead; his distribution is great for how England play. I also think that Eddie will stick to form and go with Ludlam Underhill Curry as the back three.

Heinz is still my choice over Youngs. I don't care that Heinz kicked some out on the full on a day where the wind was making the posts sway; poor conditions to judge by. Youngs has been inconsistent for ages.

I don't think Ireland is the game for Thorley to cut his teeth on, especially if you go for a 6-2 on the bench. There would be no-one to take up the slack if he has a shocker.

 

[spartan32]

In terms of momentum Ireland are looking better, but let's not forget Scotland essentially gifted them the first win (maybe some Celtic deal was struck beforehand?), but they looked comfortable against Wales and back to some sort of form after a mediocre WC.

England's first game was dire, and with all that's going on in the prem and after the WC loss, against a buoyant and youthful French side playing at home, that wasn't really a shock to anyone. I don't think we can establish anything from the Scotland game due to the weather, other than England can beat Scotland at an arm wrestle.

For me England need quick ball. It's where we play our best rugby. When we consistently move the ball quickly we get into a real rhythm (like against the AB) and we look unstoppable. For this to work we need Manu on the pitch, fully fit, for more than two phases. Mako to start for his silky hands along with Sinclair, Etoji and others to step up and fill the hole left by Billy V, punching holes in the D and sucking players in, and Curryhill to do what they do. Combine that with Young's having one of his rare blinders, or Hienz starting and just shifting it from the breakdown without any none sense, we might be alright. Oh and some half decent weather.

That all being said my sense is that England are a little lost at the moment and the hearts of the senior players just aren't in it. Furbank et al will be out to prove themselves as much as possible, but I'm not sure about some of the others. So for me this is Ireland's win, maybe by as much as 10 points. If however England can triumph it might be just enough to restart the fire and get them back on course, but I fear a loss will do serious damage.

 

[munstermuffin]

Fair,
But Stander isn't at his best at 8 and POM isn't an international level player, so it evens out


I'm as pessimistic as they come with England atm but saying you'll win by more than 9 in Twickenham is wild
You only managed 9 in your grandslam.


England by 10+ or Ireland by less than 7, and I'm leaning towards the latter

To be fair Stander is playing very well at 8. And is able to play 8 at this level. The issue with CJ is he has no other carrier in the backrow with him.
I said from start POM is worth 20mins. If he starts I won't be upset or fear for us but he is now a bench man with other options be it at 8 or 6 with Stander playing in the other spot.

I just think Irelands game has touched on a bit and think England are not in a good place. So I'll recalculate my prediction and go Ireland +8.

Our back 3 have the tools to exploit flaws.

 

[klitarris]

My England team for this one, given the squad available:

1. Genge (I have the impression that he's a better scrummager than Mako, which might be needed against Furlong)
2. George (did well against Scotland)
3. Sinckler (quality player, one of our world class ones IMO)
4. Kruis (think he provides a lot of much needed leadership in the pack. I've come to think of him as one of our most valuable players as a result, we seem a lot calmer with him on the pitch)
5. Itoje (tbh i think Itoje isn't on great form at the moment so i might have said Lawes, but going with Maro simply to keep the Sarries lineout operation together)
6. Curry
7. Underhill (him and Curry are interchangeable at 6 & 7, don't mind who goes where)
8. Earl (the only 'recognised' 8 in the squad. And i liked his carrying aggression when he came on against Scot)
9. Heinz (quicker service which is what i want)
10. Farrell (although i like the Ford-Farrell partnership when it goes well, i don't see it as taking us through to the next world cup)
11. May
12. Devoto (don't trust Manu to not get injured again and i rate Devoto. He's also the the most boshy centre in the squad i think, which i think we need)
13. JJ (Don't think he's in the best form but we're a bit short of options. Hopefully Devoto at 12 would draw some people in and create space for JJ to go round the outside)
14. Daly (meh, i'm not really a fan but i don't want two inexperienced people in the back 3 against Ireland)
15. Furbank (unlike most people it seems, i thoguht he did ok against France - no worse than anyone else - and deserves a shot)

16. Mako
17. LCD
18. Stuart
19. Launchbury
20. Lawes (covering 2nd row and back row - against France i don't think our problem was playing him at 6, it was playing Curry at 8)
21. Ludlam
22. Youngs
23. Ford (i guess he's the option that gives the most flexibility given the 6-2 split)

In an ideal world, i'd have Dombrandt in at 8 (even if BV is available, we need to develop options at 8), Earl on the bench, Ludlam out. I'd also have Youngs out and someone else (Robson maybe?) in. At 10 i'd like someone else in there, whether it's Marcus Smith or maybe Joe Simmonds, for development - although it is a big risk putting someone like that on a 6-21 bench. In the centres my ideal would be Manu and Slade but again we need to be developing options (Devoto, not sure who else?). My ideal back 3 at the moment would be May, Thorley, Watson.

I think England will win a close match, mainly because of home advantage. I can't imagine it'll be comfortable viewing though!

 

[Amiga500]

Thankfully big Billy is out.

If Tuilagi was out too, I'd be reasonably confident. But I think if he's fit and plays the full game we lose.

JJ doesn't scare me, we can and have contained him fairly well in the past. But Tuilagi's ball carrying really does one on our midfield defense.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Is Furbank a cert at 15? I'd grow in confidence with that too, we generally do well against inexperienced 15s and some of England's have cost them the game against us in the past.

Balshaw in 2001 being the prime example but Goode in 2015 and a few more come to mind.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Furbank should play, Needs to have difficult tests and this is up there. Don't thinks he's done poorly in tough conditions.

 

[Leinster Fan]

I'm semi optimistic about this one. Based off the evidence of the games so far there is a gradual change in our play, it's not obvious but it's definitely there. Both teams are pretty hit and miss at the moment so hard to call but Twickenham should give England the edge. I'd give us a decent chance though.

As for team selection, I'd like to see a few changes, Wales was a good game but it was one good game from a lot of players who haven't had many good games in green, it shouldn't guarantee being picked for anyone. Realistically though the most I'll hope for is Kilcoyne and Doris in for Healy and POM, both of whom are still good players and still have a role to play at this level but I don't think either are starters right now. Think Stander Van Der Flier and Doris could be ideal to exploit the weakness in the English backrow currently.

Beyond that my main hope is that we're willing to use the bench earlier, Kelleher, Porter and Cooney have barely been seen so far and all are in great form, a half hour each this week would be brilliant.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Mako's out. Returning to Tonga for family reasons.

 

[Leinster Fan]

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-england-twickenham-2-5011794-Feb2020/

Gonna pre-empt the English finding this embarrasment of an article and laughing about it when they win by complaining about it before they get to. God I hate our media.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-england-twickenham-2-5011794-Feb2020/

Gonna pre-empt the English finding this embarrasment of an article and laughing about it when they win by complaining about it before they get to. God I hate our media.

Don't pretend like you didn't send a tip to the author lad!

Edit: immediately realised "tip" meant advice in this context and not cold hard cash. No regrets.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-england-twickenham-2-5011794-Feb2020/

Gonna pre-empt the English finding this embarrasment of an article and laughing about it when they win by complaining about it before they get to. God I hate our media.

TBH not much wrong with that, although the smug tone is similar to what we were hearing before we gave Ireland a damn good thrashing. Points 5 and 8 are stupid though. 5 is right about Farrell but the idea Sexton is a good captain is laughable, he's even worse than Farrell. As for winning %, many England players have similar stats and it's ridiculous that history is ignored for England's last 2 meetings with Ireland and even our last 6N and world cup yet talking about players with 20-50 caps and how many of them they won just a few lines later is daft. Many of those Irish players with great winning records were still pummelled multiple times in 2019.

I'd say present form favours Ireland but England are currently an extremely inconsistent team. We could come out and play like **** but we could also come out and blow Ireland off the field.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-england-twickenham-2-5011794-Feb2020/

Gonna pre-empt the English finding this embarrasment of an article and laughing about it when they win by complaining about it before they get to. God I hate our media.

You hate your media?? Have pity on us, we're home to the Daily Mail.....

Not actually a great deal wrong with the thrust of the article and in this age of the bland it's nice to see someone off the fence. And even if we do win a lot of the points fundamentally hold good.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

the idea Sexton is a good captain is laughable

Huh? He was one game away from winning a double with Leinster last season and unbeaten this season with a decent start as Ireland captain.

 

[Roady26]

Genge
George
Sinks
Kruis
Itoje
Curry
Underhill
Earl
Heinz
Farrell
Daly
Tuilagi
Joseph
May
Furbank

Marler
Cowan-Dickie
Williams
Lawes
Ludlam
Youngs
Ford
Devoto
Thorley

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Huh? He was one game away from winning a double with Leinster last season and unbeaten this season with a decent start as Ireland captain.

Farrell is criticised for being too hot headed and getting on the wrong side of refs. Sexton already has a reputation for whinging, not being quiet when asked to, play acting and being every bit as poor a diplomat as Farrell.

 

[duncanb]

Genge
George
Sinks
Kruis
Itoje
Curry
Underhill
Earl
Heinz
Farrell
Daly
Tuilagi
Joseph
May
Furbank

Marler
Cowan-Dickie
Williams
Lawes
Ludlam
Youngs
Ford
Devoto
Thorley

Interesting 9 player bench did I miss a law change?
guess you have to drop Thorley or Devoto.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Farrell is criticised for being too hot headed and getting on the wrong side of refs. Sexton already has a reputation for whinging, not being quiet when asked to, play acting and being every bit as poor a diplomat as Farrell.

Fair enough. I didn't actually read the article, I think Farrell is a good captain too. Giving the red a bit of **** is needed

 

[big ginger 8]

Farrell is criticised for being too hot headed and getting on the wrong side of refs. Sexton already has a reputation for whinging, not being quiet when asked to, play acting and being every bit as poor a diplomat as Farrell.

He talked us out of a yellow on our line against Wales. Fans love... whinging about his whinging but refs don't really seem to care.

Stockdale also spoke of Sexton giving a speech which completely set the tone before the Wales match. The comments and actions of coaches and players certainly suggest he's a good captain.

Edit: note I don't have any strong opinions on Farrell as a captain.