retired9
Academy Player
Seems a bit strange when we have 4 great SH's already in the melting pot, Horne and White are electric IMO although Price is a great all rounder.
-
Help Support The Rugby Forum :
[2023 Six Nations] Scotland Squad
- Thread starter TRF_Olyy
- Start date
Help Support The Rugby Forum:
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2014
- Messages
- 4,652
- Reaction score
- 2,521
Got to balance out the Englishness, can't have Price, White and Vellacot all wearing white underneath their jersey, got to balance it out with a bit of green too!
retired9
Academy Player
Sshhh thats why Scotland have been doing better recently, more eeeeeengleesh
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2015
- Messages
- 10,923
- Reaction score
- 6,526
I have two issues with Scotland's approach.
First, I feel they have prioritised finding and recruiting foreign born eligible players over grass roots rugby and developing homegrown players. They are looking for a quick fix rather than trying to improve the system.
Second, is that they are leading a race to the bottom, trying to cap young players who aren't ready for international rugby just to try and increase their talent pool, which is leading to other countries capping younger to try and tie them down. It's wrong and potentially harmful to younger players.
retired9
Academy Player
It's a fair assessment, I think the issue is the SRU are so full of overpaid seat fillers there is a lot of money that could be growing the game with a view to getting more pro teams. If we could produce enough players to justify a new Borders pro side as well as a Northern one that would be brilliant. In order to do that we need successfull national sides (Mens, Womens, even League) to generate the interest.
TSPopinjay
Academy Player
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2021
- Messages
- 55
- Reaction score
- 35
We already have an incredibly small pool. England has more registered referees than Scotland has players; how on earth are we supposed to be competitive without tapping into our diaspora?
I'm pretty sure I am next in line for a call up at 10.
Yeah, like Healy I get he's young, promising and a project for the future. Cooney though is 32 and in the process of losing his jersey at Ulster.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2016
- Messages
- 6,502
- Reaction score
- 1,830
What would I do differently?
Invest in domestic youth development to reverse record low levels of domestic playing numbers.
Avoid having 1/3 of your official u16 sides based in another country while players in 4 cities north of the central belt have no realistic pathway to join an official Scottish youth side without relocating.
Related to above, get a Super 6 side based north of the central belt as the number 1 priority to give a pathway to players from half of Scotlands geographic territory and half of its 8 cities.
Root out the culture of elitism that means if you didn't go to the right school your chances of accessing decent quality training and progressing in the sport are extremely impaired.
Replicate what rugby nations with a similar population like Georgia, Wales, NZ, Ireland do. Particularly Ireland & Georgia who historically didn't have anything like the same level of public interest and participation in the sport but have completely overtaken Scotland in domestic player development.
Stop with the factually incorrect defeatism about Scotland being "too small" to compete (see above). Scotland is in absolutely no way more disadvantaged than Georgia but is routinely far behind them at u20s.
Stop picking journeymen with caps for foreign teams over reasonable domestic talent, thereby disincentivising and demotivating young domestic professionals from making the sacrifices that are often required to be a professional player. At least the Wallaby Dempsy has some years ahead of him. McConnachie and Cooney are over the hill and simply denying a Scotsman their decades long dream of wearing a Scotland shirt at a RWC.
Stop selecting more foreign developed players than the rest of the entire Tier1 rugby world combined (now a factually accurate statement).
Stop failing at pretty much every metric except for revenue generation and domestic coach development (Blair & Townsend).
I think the above about covers it without going into too much tedious detail.
I mean, you are amongst like minded folk in this thread and it appears myself and DSLD are in a minority. But personally I hope the SQ Barbarians get humped so badly at this 6N that the diabolical SRU has to change course and emphasise domestic youth development. Picking up rejects from other nations is a recipe for certain failure in the medium to long term. Almost by definition it ensures failure.
To turn it around. What explanation is there for Scotland being overtaken badly by Ireland, Georgia and Wales since the 1990s in terms of producing domestic talent other than consistently abject mismanagement of the domestic game by the SRU?
To be more on topic. I think this squad selection has a chance at finishing 4th. If Finn goes down injured or has another mental walkabout or apparent conflict with Townsend then the SRU has a chance of the wooden spoon it so richly deserves.
retired9
Academy Player
I mean, I don't disagree with what you are saying. My point was that the SRU have been doing this for decades, more interested in spending money in the hospitality suites and boardrooms than growing the game. If we consider that as unchanging for a moment, can a coach be blamed for trying to make his team win by picking from all the players available to him?
Ireland and Wales (don't know about Georgia) have 4 pro teams, one way or another that has to change in Scotland if we want to increase the talent pool of homegrown players. I never said Scotland was "too small", the oppurtunity for players to come up through a system is what is lacking.
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2017
- Messages
- 4,887
- Reaction score
- 4,320
Another thing that many people tend to overlook is that besides only having 2 pro teams, Scottish rugby can't compete on the salary front and almost all the exiles (and there are many of them) have to go back and play for their clubs in England and France on 6N rest weekends while the other nations (with the exception of the 2-3 Welsh exiles) enjoy having all their players in camp and can rest and prepare them properly for the next game. That's a pretty significant disadvantage as players could come back to camp knackered or injured and given the lack of growing the game at SRU board level I don't blame Townsend for using the rules to increase the playing pool.
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2017
- Messages
- 4,887
- Reaction score
- 4,320
Tighthead is definitely an issue if Zander Fagerson isn't fit. Nel can do an ok job for 40-50 mins but then you have Berghan on the bench which is a worrying prospect. Hooker could be any two from Cherry, Turner and Brown. I think Richie Gray has to start given his form and that the lineout mysteriously started to function when he returned to the team. Hamish Watson only played his first game for Edinburgh after a long injury lay off. I think we may see a back row of Ritchie / M Fagerson / Dempsey. Luke Crosbie may start ahead of Dempsey with M Fagerson moved to 8.
Agree with the Horne call (or White). Price simply isn't in form. Steyn on the wing could be Kinghorn or Maitland.
I'd probably go Hogg, DVDM, Harris, Sione, Maitland (for experience), White, Russell, Dempsey, Ritchie, M Fagerson, R Gray, J Gray, Nel, Brown, Schoeman.
Townsend loves Price and so I imagine he'll start. Also think Gilchrist will start. If Mish isn't in the team then J Gray will be more essential as the tackle bot.
Last edited:
retired9
Academy Player
Yeah I would have Zander in all day long but word is he is out for now at least. Hooker I agree any of the 3 are good options, Cherry seems to have a knack for beating defenders in the loose!
White would be OK with me also, I don't watch Glasgow closely but Horne has been the choice man at 9 and they are going well. Price is dependable for the bench and has a lot of miles playing with Finn.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2016
- Messages
- 6,502
- Reaction score
- 1,830
Just to clarify. I've no criticism of Townsend over player selection except if the ageing McConnachie and Cooney jump to the head of the Cup without joining Edinburgh or Glasgow (which I think would be bad for wider morale). Townsend has to look after his career and try to win at all costs.
retired9
Academy Player
Easier posting here than on the CC thread it’s too busy with whinging…
First of all, where did that CONFIDENCE come from?? I have never seen Scotland look so calm and collected that I can remember. Really really pleased how they approached this game.
An unusual game in a way, it seemed to be mostly England which we absorbed and managed pretty well. Defence did what was needed overall, albeit there will be more organised challengers to come.
Nel seemed to hang on ok, didn’t seem a scrum heavy game to me and there wasn’t endless resets.
Happy with White, and also Horne when he came on. Price will have a job to do getting back in the starting 15.
Great from Finn, had to take a lot of attention in the first half but just showed his class.
12 and 13 really worked for this game, for Wales we could stick with it for another round I think.
Big fan of darcy but Steyn is some unit as well, very impressed.
Headlines for VDM and rightly so, he was the X factor that made a big difference.
Back row forwards also had a strong game, no Watson but some real challengers in there to cause some head scratching.
This has to be backed up against wales who no surprise were much tighter in the second half than the first against Ireland. However, I fully expect our scrum to be used to give them a hard time, and the backs to capitalise on that.
First of all, where did that CONFIDENCE come from?? I have never seen Scotland look so calm and collected that I can remember. Really really pleased how they approached this game.
An unusual game in a way, it seemed to be mostly England which we absorbed and managed pretty well. Defence did what was needed overall, albeit there will be more organised challengers to come.
Nel seemed to hang on ok, didn’t seem a scrum heavy game to me and there wasn’t endless resets.
Happy with White, and also Horne when he came on. Price will have a job to do getting back in the starting 15.
Great from Finn, had to take a lot of attention in the first half but just showed his class.
12 and 13 really worked for this game, for Wales we could stick with it for another round I think.
Big fan of darcy but Steyn is some unit as well, very impressed.
Headlines for VDM and rightly so, he was the X factor that made a big difference.
Back row forwards also had a strong game, no Watson but some real challengers in there to cause some head scratching.
This has to be backed up against wales who no surprise were much tighter in the second half than the first against Ireland. However, I fully expect our scrum to be used to give them a hard time, and the backs to capitalise on that.
scotlandfan93
Academy Player
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2018
- Messages
- 9
- Reaction score
- 5
anyone else getting 2017 vibes from the current midfield with tuipoluto doing the job alex dunbar used to do which is what i think we have been missing the last few years.
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2017
- Messages
- 4,887
- Reaction score
- 4,320
I think our discipline was much better yesterday. There seemed to be far fewer daft penalties conceded. Maybe the ref helped in that regard and wasn't being as pedantic as other refs would have been but I think our discipline was better regardless.
Thought it was a proper team performance with most players bringing their A game. Russell was shaky in the first half but recovered well in the second and was influential. It looked like part of England's gameplan included targeting Russell by closing him down quickly and putting in a few hits as he kicked. Hogg looked a bit out of sorts but he is just back from an injury lay off. Kinghorn looked superb at FB when he came on. I wouldn't be averse to starting him against Wales otherwise I'd keep the same team with Zander/Nel sharing the TH spot.
Thought it was a proper team performance with most players bringing their A game. Russell was shaky in the first half but recovered well in the second and was influential. It looked like part of England's gameplan included targeting Russell by closing him down quickly and putting in a few hits as he kicked. Hogg looked a bit out of sorts but he is just back from an injury lay off. Kinghorn looked superb at FB when he came on. I wouldn't be averse to starting him against Wales otherwise I'd keep the same team with Zander/Nel sharing the TH spot.
Last edited:
retired9
Academy Player
If I am correct I believe Pete Horne is on loan from Glasgow to work on the attack. One must assume we have him to thank for the passing game, some excellent consistency and very few dropped balls (ok some gaffs in a couple of attacks should have come off better) but the speed was pleasing. White must have had a big impact on the pace too, make Price look glacial now.
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2020
- Messages
- 10,078
- Reaction score
- 5,575
Even though our record against Scotland is very good and this wouldn’t be the first time going into the game where we’ve not been in great form and Scotland have but still lost, I can’t say I’m confident. I expect a close game but Scotland to nik it. Mind you I remember the last time we lost to Scotland in Murrayfield in 2017 and that was a comfortable Scotland win that day and I wouldn’t rule out another one like that but equally wouldn’t rule out a Wales win either.
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2017
- Messages
- 4,887
- Reaction score
- 4,320
If Pivac was still in charge I'd feel much more confident but Gatland is a wily old fox who will demand a response from his players. That said there seems to be a determination in the Scottish camp to back last weekend up with another win. I know Owens is captain now but will AWJ's absence on the pitch be as big a miss as it would have been a couple of years ago?
retired9
Academy Player
This game is the one I am probably most nervous about, Wales have a habit of being very beatable the week before then completely humbling us. I cling on to the hope that Scotlands confidence at Twickenham is not just a one off.
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2020
- Messages
- 10,078
- Reaction score
- 5,575
Yeah it’ll be interesting to see what team Gatland picks. Outside pressure is to make wholesale changes but he won’t be paying attention to that. He usually picks the same team after a loss and he’ll probably do the same here but there probably will be 1 or 2 changes other than AWJ but not the 10-15 that some people are saying.
retired9
Academy Player
Well that was a fun weekend, have to keep the focus now for 2 weeks nad go to France and improve again.
Kinghorn has made a big statement to start at 15, he is a back 3 player not a 10 and is really shining in that position.
Kinghorn has made a big statement to start at 15, he is a back 3 player not a 10 and is really shining in that position.
Personally I would prefer Hogg back, but can see where you are coming and agree he shone and earned a place going forward
retired9
Academy Player
I'm a Hogg fan too, not sure what it is though he doesn't seem to have had the impact that Kinghorn has when he's come one. Been a few loose passes too its just not all roses for me with Hogg at the moment, it would be a big call to drop him as a starter in Paris though.
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2015
- Messages
- 10,923
- Reaction score
- 6,526
Definitely think Hogg is a bit of a liability when passing. You need to trust that they can finish off a move with a good pass and I don't think that with him.
retired9
Academy Player
Yes and it's not the first time, don't know whats up with him. Its a bummer because he is still a great attacking runner.
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2017
- Messages
- 4,887
- Reaction score
- 4,320
I guess Mish is in need of game time after his injury.
Dempsey was also released back to Glasgow and so it'll probably be the same back row v France
