6 nations to 12 nations

Croket66 · Nov 24, 2013

Dato said:
If Georgia is worse than Italy during joining 5 nations, it means that as of today, they shall win against us very easily. Do you believe that it is possible? Besides, Georgia has very good youth teams, with equally strong forwards and back row. We beat them already twice at u-17 level, rugby infrastructure is developing really fast and number of youth enrolled in rugby is increasing each year in Georgia.Therefore, I think we do not necessarily need to join six nations to beat them during upcoming years. P.S. I am deliberately silent about the issue of naturalization )

And Georgia U18 beaten Italy U18 2 times in a row : 2012 (20-18) and 2013 (17-12)

psychic duck · Nov 24, 2013

Big Ewis said:
no, for sure Georgia today or the last few years hasn't been at the level of Italy when it first joined the 5N to make it the 6N. They certainly had Tier 2 scores against some sides, but England putting 80 on them was due to England playing the best Rugby of its history by a mile, and they actually won a game in their very first tournament.

Take a quick look at Italy's results in 1999 the year before they joined the 6 Nations (http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/records/team/match_results.html?id=1999;team=20;type=year), and the year they joined in 2000 (http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/records/team/match_results.html?id=2000;team=20;type=year). It wasn't just England putting a beating on them, Fiji put 90 points on them collectively in those two years and they lost to Canada at home. Georgia are better than Italy were in 1999/2000, by a comfortable margin as well.

Big Ewis · Nov 24, 2013

Dato said:
If Georgia is worse than Italy during joining 5 nations, it means that as of today, they shall win against us very easily. Do you believe that it is possible? Besides, Georgia has very good youth teams, with equally strong forwards and back row. We beat them already twice at u-17 level, rugby infrastructure is developing really fast and number of youth enrolled in rugby is increasing each year in Georgia.Therefore, I think we do not necessarily need to join six nations to beat them during upcoming years. P.S. I am deliberately silent about the issue of naturalization )

mmm well Georgia played a great game against Samoa, but Italy still has an edge over Georgia today, yes. They've had their worst year in some time, and Georgia has transcended to win this one, but Italy shouldn't have too much trouble dealing with Georgia today. Though I admit Georgia has had some very good results this November, and I'm quite happy to see they've improved a lot since the RWC.

But to have a technical look at it:
Italy can produce a quality of defense for 80min Georgia hasn't ever. Italy would have an edge even in the scrum, Georgia's strength.
And the back play is nowhere near Italy's, not that Italy are fantastic there but they have shown some Tier 1 ability:
some fine display overall against France with two excellent tries, 1 good try in Twickenham (to none), a try against Ireland (though ugly) and then 20 points and 3 tries on Australia, with some good attacking movements against Fiji this month.
Georgia still are heavily limited in that department, albeit an essential one in Rugby or any sport (attack).

In terms of results, though they've been terrible this year, Italy still managed good wins against France, Ireland, pushed the English to the limit on their home soil and came within a point of a fine Scotland team in summer.

Georgia can't do that, not yet. And yes, they would take poundings in the 6N.

norcalbuff · Nov 24, 2013

The future of European rugby should be this:

-6N stays in current form. It's pretty much perfect for the current 6 Nations taking part, there is a lot of history and the rivalries are great.

-Current top 6 in the ENC break away and create a professionally run competition outside of the FIRA-AER structure. FIRA does a decent enough job at the grassroots level but the organization is not fit to run a professional competition. The competition would have minimum standards for stadia, broadcasts, on-field results, etc. Teams from outside the current 6 could apply for inclusion and if they met the standards they would be allowed in. Teams not fulfilling the minimum criteria (looking at you Russia) could be booted.

-Once every 4 years, you would have a European Championship. You would need to balance the need for as many teams as possible with the need for competitiveness. Right now I'd set it at 8 teams. This could either be done in the June window or in place of the 6N once every 4 years. If in place of the 6N in a certain year, it would fit nicely in there: 2 pools of 4, semis and finals would fit right in the 5 playing weeks we currently have. Obviously in that case you'd do 3rd/5th/7th place matches as well.

IMO this nicely balances the need to expand the game with the need to retain the history that makes the 6N special.

norcalbuff · Nov 25, 2013

Big Ewis said:
mmm well Georgia played a great game against Samoa, but Italy still has an edge over Georgia today, yes. They've had their worst year in some time, and Georgia has transcended to win this one, but Italy shouldn't have too much trouble dealing with Georgia today. Though I admit Georgia has had some very good results this November, and I'm quite happy to see they've improved a lot since the RWC.

But to have a technical look at it:
Italy can produce a quality of defense for 80min Georgia hasn't ever. Italy would have an edge even in the scrum, Georgia's strength.
And the back play is nowhere near Italy's, not that Italy are fantastic there but they have shown some Tier 1 ability:
some fine display overall against France with two excellent tries, 1 good try in Twickenham (to none), a try against Ireland (though ugly) and then 20 points and 3 tries on Australia, with some good attacking movements against Fiji this month.
Georgia still are heavily limited in that department, albeit an essential one in Rugby or any sport (attack).

In terms of results, though they've been terrible this year, Italy still managed good wins against France, Ireland, pushed the English to the limit on their home soil and came within a point of a fine Scotland team in summer.

Georgia can't do that, not yet. And yes, they would take poundings in the 6N.

Georgia aren't to Italy's level yet, but don't get the benefit of playing Tier 1 competition 7-8 times a year either. The deck is absolutely stacked in Italy's favor and their union has overall done a pretty poor job of improving rugby in Italy since joining the 6N, relying on poaches to even stay at the level of mediocrity. Georgia also are better than Italy at age grade levels and the Georgians are starting to produce some backs, which you can see if you watch Sharikadze and Mchedlidze.

The Jones Boy · Nov 25, 2013

The 6 Nations is a bit of a half ar$ed tournament with disjointed gaps in the playing sequence which is baffling when the teams are so close together geographically and also no home and away games makes the contest lacking in any real measure of who is actually the best team.
I find it a constant disappointment and not worthy of being mentioned in the same breath or paragraph as the now pre-eminent Rugby Championship which features vast travelling, home and away fixtures and a much higher calibre of teams competing.

Croket66 · Nov 25, 2013

norcalbuff said:
The future of European rugby should be this:

-Once every 4 years, you would have a European Championship. You would need to balance the need for as many teams as possible with the need for competitiveness. Right now I'd set it at 8 teams. This could either be done in the June window or in place of the 6N once every 4 years. If in place of the 6N in a certain year, it would fit nicely in there: 2 pools of 4, semis and finals would fit right in the 5 playing weeks we currently have. Obviously in that case you'd do 3rd/5th/7th place matches as well.

Look at my post :

Every 4 years : Euro 10 Nations - 6 Nations + 4 best 6 Nations B teams (Georgia, Romania + Russia? Spain? Portugal = 2 pool of 5 teams = 4 games + semi and final)

For example, with 10 or 8 teams
[TABLE="width: 500"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD]Pool A[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]Pool B[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]- England[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]- France[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]- Ireland[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]- Wales[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]- Italy[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]- Scotland[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]- Georgia[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]- Romania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]- (Spain)[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]- (Russia)[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

Each 4 years, this competition can be organized by two countries, alternating 6 Nations country, and 6NB countries
example :
Euro 2017 in England and Wales
Euro 2021 in Spain and Portugal (France's games in Barcelona or San Sebastian)
Euro 2025 in France and Italy
Euro 2029 in Russia and Georgia ...

psychic duck · Nov 25, 2013

norcalbuff said:
Georgia aren't to Italy's level yet, but don't get the benefit of playing Tier 1 competition 7-8 times a year either. The deck is absolutely stacked in Italy's favor and their union has overall done a pretty poor job of improving rugby in Italy since joining the 6N, relying on poaches to even stay at the level of mediocrity. Georgia also are better than Italy at age grade levels and the Georgians are starting to produce some backs, which you can see if you watch Sharikadze and Mchedlidze.

Exactly. They can get all their players available for every match with longer preparation time, all players playing regularly in one of the top 3 European leagues and Heineken Cup, masses more money from TV deals, sponsors, and getting big tournaments and marquee teams to fill large stadia on a regular basis. Considering that huge advantage on all the PNC and top ENC the gap is really quite small.

I have been saying for ages that people are ignoring warning signs about the state Italian rugby is in. They are allowing the national team to cloud problems underneath which need solving. 1) Their youth teams are lingering in the JWRT and recently got booted out of the U18 6N 2) Several of their best players are of similar age and will retire in a spate in the near-ish future 3) They have had 13 years in the 6N yet still their fly halves are Burton (Australia), Orquera and di Bernardo (Argentina), Allan (Scotland) and Botes (South Africa) and Dominguez and Pez were both Argentine as well, it's simply embarrassing 4) crowds at domestic games are woeful even if the national team has done well in this regard.

Big Ewis said:
mmm well Georgia played a great game against Samoa, but Italy still has an edge over Georgia today, yes. They've had their worst year in some time, and Georgia has transcended to win this one, but Italy shouldn't have too much trouble dealing with Georgia today. Though I admit Georgia has had some very good results this November, and I'm quite happy to see they've improved a lot since the RWC.

But to have a technical look at it:
Italy can produce a quality of defense for 80min Georgia hasn't ever. Italy would have an edge even in the scrum, Georgia's strength.
And the back play is nowhere near Italy's, not that Italy are fantastic there but they have shown some Tier 1 ability:
some fine display overall against France with two excellent tries, 1 good try in Twickenham (to none), a try against Ireland (though ugly) and then 20 points and 3 tries on Australia, with some good attacking movements against Fiji this month.
Georgia still are heavily limited in that department, albeit an essential one in Rugby or any sport (attack).

In terms of results, though they've been terrible this year, Italy still managed good wins against France, Ireland, pushed the English to the limit on their home soil and came within a point of a fine Scotland team in summer.

Georgia can't do that, not yet. And yes, they would take poundings in the 6N.

Got to laugh. Complete lack of knowledge about rugby yet so eager to spout it on every single thread.

profitius · Nov 25, 2013

Well changes will have to be made to the 6 nations in the future if developing teams continue to improve. Rugby needs more quality teams and everything should be done to help improve these teams. A promotion relegation to the 6 nations (or 7 or 8 nations) would be my preferred choice. That would spice things up and really help rugby take off in all those tier 2 countries. They would have a solid goal to aim for.

Italy wre good in the 90's but when they were allowed into the 6 nations it happened at the same time as their team becoming weaker. They do have problems but they're not going too badly nowadays. They beat Ireland and France this year were means they must be making progress.

lucky number 7 · Nov 25, 2013

psychic duck said:
Take a quick look at Italy's results in 1999 the year before they joined the 6 Nations (http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/records/team/match_results.html?id=1999;team=20;type=year), and the year they joined in 2000 (http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/records/team/match_results.html?id=2000;team=20;type=year). It wasn't just England putting a beating on them, Fiji put 90 points on them collectively in those two years and they lost to Canada at home. Georgia are better than Italy were in 1999/2000, by a comfortable margin as well.

Be that as it may the game has changed an untold amount since the early 90's.
As much as we can't compare it to football really the commercialization of rugby in the last decade has gone a long way to making change like this even more difficult. between hectic schedules for players and clashes with other competitions , I don't see there being as much an incentive to grow the league at the moment in contrast to 1999 where we were witnessing the dawn of true professionalism and mainstream expansion of the sport.

William18 · Nov 25, 2013

Why are people being so naive? Everyone here is talking about it in terms of playing strength. Whether or not Georgia joins the 6 nations has nothing to do with playing strength - it is all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. It isn't the job of the other 6 unions to promote rugby in Georgia. This is where the IRB needs to step in.

smartcooky · Nov 25, 2013

Conal said:
i know italy had beat ireland a couple of times in the 90's

has georgia ever wan a game against 6 nations opposition?

NOPE

Closest they have come is losing 10-14 to Ireland in the 2007 RWC; and that particular Irish team was pants!

D

Dato

Academy Player

Nov 25, 2013

#33

smartcooky said:

NOPE

Closest they have come is losing 10-14 to Ireland in the 2007 RWC; and that particular Irish team was pants!
I know that Samoa is not tier 1, but only formally....
I do not think that expansion of 6 nations is realistic in near future.
However, I believe that Georgia and Romania deserve at least 1 test against tier 1 nations every year. Hope it is not impossible.

psychic duck

International

Nov 25, 2013

#34

lucky number 7 said:
Be that as it may the game has changed an untold amount since the early 90's.
As much as we can't compare it to football really the commercialization of rugby in the last decade has gone a long way to making change like this even more difficult. between hectic schedules for players and clashes with other competitions , I don't see there being as much an incentive to grow the league at the moment in contrast to 1999 where we were witnessing the dawn of true professionalism and mainstream expansion of the sport.

Yes, of course you're right. Everybody knows this topic is a non starter really in reality. I was more just contesting the "Italy were much better line", which is rubbish.

smartcooky said:

NOPE

Closest they have come is losing 10-14 to Ireland in the 2007 RWC; and that particular Irish team was pants!
That Ireland team was playing awfully. But it was still considerably better than they were in the 90's. There is nowhere near enough sample size on that list. For a start the games from over 10 years ago have no relevance to the team's level today and about 5 of those RWC games were after 3 day turnarounds. That can't be compared to when Italy got their wins to get into the 6 Nations where they had about just under 30 Tier 1 matches over a period in the 90's for about 3 or 4 wins against sides that still had a large amateur influence or were resting players.

I don't think Georgia are as good as Italy are now. But just that Italy weren't that good before the 6 Nations. Canada were better than them at the same point of time in the 90's.

M

moneymark

Academy Player

Nov 25, 2013

#35

Defo think we need to get more countries interested and playing. Follow the lead of football promote this by letting teams play interesting games, get New Zealand to Bucherest if required. We should start a petition to get 2 divisions of 6 to the IRB. who's with me?

Also some of these eastern countries have got really cheap hot hookers, it's a win win.

D

dragos03

First XV

Nov 26, 2013

#36

HornetsCoach said:
I'd like to see it grow, too - yet some teams of the second tier seem to lack financial basis to embark on such an adventure - some guys from Roumania told me they see their domestic system going down the drains already as most of their key players have signed abroad and national organization rather broke, also seems to be an issue in other countries. I mean they have this long tradition of Rugby but without any presence in the media...and some are even sceptical of their participation in tournaments like the Amlin or North Sea Cup, just as it does not make any sense money-wise. The idea is great but I don't see it in the near future.

This is completely wrong and whoever told you this knows nothing about Romanian rugby.

The Romanian domestic league has actually developed a lot in the last few years and is probably the best pro championship in Europe besides the big 3. Key players have always played in stronger leagues, but nowadays most of them stay and play for Romanian clubs because of increased domestic wages. There's also a significant number of decent foreign players in Romania at the moment, including a former All Black. The budget of champions RCM Timisoara is over 2.5 million EUR, that might seem low compared with top Western clubs but it's huge in terms of Eastern European rugby.

You claim that rugby has no presence in the media here, that's also completely wrong. One match from every round of the national league is being broadcasted live by the public TV station (TVR) and every single match is livestreamed online for free by the Federation.

As for the presence in the Amlin, the Romanian team (Bucharest Wolves) is used as a development squad but still gets some decent results. They usually win against Italian teams by rather large margins, last year Top 14 club Agen lost in Bucharest while this season Newcastle Falcons barely managed to win by a late penalty. There are also talks of including a second Romanian team in the competition.

H

HornetsCoach

Academy Player

Nov 26, 2013

#37

Big thanx for filling me in - sorry bout my ignorance - this forum's probably the best way to spread information. greets from the dark side of the oval universe

Toko_11

Bench Player

Nov 26, 2013

#38

Big Ewis said:
mmm well Georgia played a great game against Samoa, but Italy still has an edge over Georgia today, yes. They've had their worst year in some time, and Georgia has transcended to win this one, but Italy shouldn't have too much trouble dealing with Georgia today. Though I admit Georgia has had some very good results this November, and I'm quite happy to see they've improved a lot since the RWC.

But to have a technical look at it:
Italy can produce a quality of defense for 80min Georgia hasn't ever. Italy would have an edge even in the scrum, Georgia's strength.
And the back play is nowhere near Italy's, not that Italy are fantastic there but they have shown some Tier 1 ability:
some fine display overall against France with two excellent tries, 1 good try in Twickenham (to none), a try against Ireland (though ugly) and then 20 points and 3 tries on Australia, with some good attacking movements against Fiji this month.
Georgia still are heavily limited in that department, albeit an essential one in Rugby or any sport (attack).

In terms of results, though they've been terrible this year, Italy still managed good wins against France, Ireland, pushed the English to the limit on their home soil and came within a point of a fine Scotland team in summer.

Georgia can't do that, not yet. And yes, they would take poundings in the 6N.

Hmm I disagree with this one.. see the Georgia you saw this November is very far from the full strength side that would show up if we were to play a 6N team. besides missing 8 of our best players including Captain and vice captain we also had almost no time to prepare for the games. the team started assembling 5 days before the Canada game and was only fully assembled 3!!! days prior to the game and even with such lack of preparation they managed to beat a very motivated Canada team. after a week of practice we showed a slightly improved performance vs the USA and only lost because of a freak accident. another week and we finally manage to get our game together and beat Samoa.. Also with all due respect to Samoans in Georgia its hard to make headlines with a team like them.. when casual fans think of Samoa they don't think of a powerhouse coming to town in the most important game we've ever played... they would probably think like "hmm another team like Spain coming to play us ?" However if you put a name like Scotland or Italy on the billboards you bet your frogs all the tickets will sell out days before the game and the Top 14 guys will be rushing to the team weeks before to get into the lineup!

so why am i saying this... I think that in home games we would have a great chance to beat Italy, Scotland and have a really close game vs teams such as England, Ireland and wales with having a chance to win til the last minute! but of course as always I'm Georgian and I must be very biased

just like i was before Samoa game... no one on earth believed we could beat Samoa until we did.. and no one will ever predict us beating Italy or Scotland until we cause one of those "shockers" also why are you discounting all the games that we played Argentina and they barely scrape away with wins. and the margin getting smaller every time, also consider the fact that none of the games we played the top 10 were held at home. yes we might be weaker but Georgians are at their best when they are the underdogs.

And if half of our team could beat Samoa why can't our main team beat Italy or Scotland...

EDIT: oh and about the scrum thing.... noo way... You put Kakovin Natriashvili and Jgenti in our first line and on one on earth could beat our scrum be it France England Africa or the Avengers

Last edited: Nov 26, 2013

dasNdanger

First XV

Nov 26, 2013

#39

psychic duck said:
Got to laugh. Complete lack of knowledge about rugby yet so eager to spout it on every single thread.

Excuse me, but THAT distinction belongs to me!!

das

Kiwiwomble

International

TRF Legend

Nov 26, 2013

#40

What kind of crowd would turn up in Georgia for a game against a tri nations team?

surely an easy (relatively) step would be to get the tri nations teams to stop over on the way to November tours as we did Japan this year, AB's play Georgia, Aussie plays Japan and RSA play Russia? before carrying on with the normal end of year tour.

If the 6 nations teams could then just commit to the odd "warm up" game before the start of the 6 nations then these teams would get a couple of completely different tier 1 games a year...has to be a good start and if a big enough crowd turned up then would also help grow profile

would be more interested in these games than the same old same old...doesn't matter if we loose to Aussie...we play them 17 times next year so will get the back