A Political Thread

[Bee]

There you go....elitism!

If it makes you feel better, I can say "Would you let a teacher, CEO and politician decide how to do your heart surgery best", too. It's the same. Has nothing to do with elitism.
Do you know what a core principle of democracy is ? Having trust that the ones I elected represent my opinion best and act to the best of me and my country, being the experts in running a country, as I am not.

 

[ncurd]

The cry of elitism is one of stupidest in human history. The Americans use it to justify electing candidate that have no bloody clue what they are doing.

Infact you see Labor doing it with Corbyn. Despite being really lackluster in the campaign and refusing to share a platform with other leaders he's completely trashed his own leadership and never convinced traditional labor supporters Europe was best for them. Now he's being booted put as he clearly doesn't have a clue but labour member who supported remain still want him despite being one of reasons they lost.

Reality is some people are just smarter and better suited to make some decision others are not through years of experience that others simply are not. As long as you actually hold your MP accountable alls good, always support a particular party but don't like your MP join the party and get them deselected. Campaign and argue for a fairer voting system (although the general public cooked up badly on that one or wanted a broken system as it helped their parties win).

Cries of elitism is just another form of anti-intellectualism.

 

[Bee]

The cry of elitism is one of stupidest in human history. The Americans use it to justify electing candidate that have no bloody clue what they are doing.

Infact you see Labor doing it with Corbyn. Despite being really lackluster in the campaign and refusing to share a platform with other leaders he's completely trashed his own leadership and never convinced traditional labor supporters Europe was best for them. Now he's being booted put as he clearly doesn't have a clue but labour member who supported remain still want him despite being one of reasons they lost.

Reality is some people are just smarter and better suited to make some decision others are not through years of experience that others simply are not. As long as you actually hold your MP accountable alls good, always support a particular party but don't like your MP join the party and get them deselected. Campaign and argue for a fairer voting system (although the general public cooked up badly on that one or wanted a broken system as it helped their parties win).

Cries of elitism is just another form of anti-intellectualism.

This. Thank you !

 

[ncurd]

God some people are idiots claiming the lib dems are undemocratic on the fact they've announced they'll campaign on policy to stay in the EU or rejoin it.

Some people don't understand how democracy works at all.

 

[McTallshort]

If it makes you feel better, I can say "Would you let a teacher, CEO and politician decide how to do your heart surgery best", too. It's the same. Has nothing to do with elitism.
Do you know what a core principle of democracy is ? Having trust that the ones I elected represent my opinion best and act to the best of me and my country, being the experts in running a country, as I am not.

It would depend on the situation I suppose would I want a career politician who has gone from prep school to private school to top university to political understudy to prime minister deciding what's best for working class people in the east Midlands? Honestly no but the sad fact is ordinary people don't become cabinet ministers anymore in any political party so that's probably where elitism comes in to people's minds.

After a weekend away with the family (Mrs tall short hasn't been deported yet) I have reflected a lot on what's happening and I put it down to 2 things: the first is a genuine indifference to the EU from everyone including most alarmingly organisations such as the BBC. I do not remember the last time the BBC or anyone else did an EU special on legislation being passed that week in Brussels (or Strasbourg) yet a politician breaks a finger nail in Westminster and the press and media wet their pants. The fact is we as a nation just don't consider the EU that important, we know there is a load more regulation at work to understand, we know there are lots of people working for us with unpronounceable surnames and we know we pay in lots of money in to it but really what's the point? Again no one no knows or no one wants to tell us. And the second thing is protest. Lots of people I work etc just don't like the ruling elite and when someone like Tony Blair says vote for this most people think on your bike mate. For better or worse the decision is made and we need to make the best of it.

As for juh whinging on about the older generation has screwing over his generation cry me a ****ing river mate, when I left school in 1991 it coincided with nearly all the heavy industry being wiped out in the east Midlands, 100 of years of traditional gone in the space of a few years. Every generation has challenges to face why should you feel immune to that.

 

[j'nuh]

Amazing. The people have spoken yet the losers will not accept it!!

Sure some people do not understand what they have voted for but that is the case on both sides!

Sure a lot of people did not vote when they could have but that was the case on both sides!

The reasoning that is prevalent in the insinuation that the only reason that the Leave voters voted as they did is because they could not have understood what they are doing is pure elitism! That is something the EU masters are good at - indeed probably the only thing!!

Also, that people are using the over reaction of the immediate aftermath of a shock result as some sort of "proof" that a Leave vote has to be wrong.....most (all!!) of the "results" of an OUT vote were well laid out by Remain in the preamble to the Referendum!

Who did not know that Scotland would not accept a Leave vote? Although how they are going to finance an out of control health and social security budget without London or EU money is debatable! As is the miscomprehension that they can somehow stay in when Britain exits - the best they can hope for is a successful application some years down the road!

http://dailym.ai/28UHQx3

Let us judge the validity and sense of the decision after many months, even years, rather than hours - you may be right but it is too early.

I can see why the Remain camp voted as they did!

This is typical EU detached rulers' behaviour - "never accept the will of the people if it conflicts with our own beliefs". Vis, Ireland's NO in Lisbon referendum resulting in a second running and their pouring resources in to propaganda to get the result they want - although that miserably failed here!!

Talking about indirect Democracy..........

Democracy isn't a game of rugby, where one team wins and one team loses and that should be consigned to history etc.

If the public make a decision and then change their minds, that decision to change their minds must be respected. That is the democratic thing to do. If on Thursday it was 52-48 Leave, and the events since then has changed the public's mind, that too must be respected.

This is why constitutional referendums must require supermajorities. "Voter regret" shouldn't be enough to swing people to make another decision.

Another reason is that all the way through the referendum you had people saying they don't know which way to vote because they had no idea what would happen. Well, now we do know some of what will and has happened, and it doesn't look good. I suspect a lot of the on-the-fence people may have been swung by the events since the referendum

What I want to see is some polling on whether people have changed their minds and by how much. Anecdotal events where people change their minds doesn't really give an indication of how many people have changed since the referendum. If there's been a 0.1% swing to remain, then sod re-looking at the result. If there's been a 10% swing, then we must not just ignore this.

The cry of elitism is one of stupidest in human history. The Americans use it to justify electing candidate that have no bloody clue what they are doing.

Infact you see Labor doing it with Corbyn. Despite being really lackluster in the campaign and refusing to share a platform with other leaders he's completely trashed his own leadership and never convinced traditional labor supporters Europe was best for them. Now he's being booted put as he clearly doesn't have a clue but labour member who supported remain still want him despite being one of reasons they lost.

Reality is some people are just smarter and better suited to make some decision others are not through years of experience that others simply are not. As long as you actually hold your MP accountable alls good, always support a particular party but don't like your MP join the party and get them deselected. Campaign and argue for a fairer voting system (although the general public cooked up badly on that one or wanted a broken system as it helped their parties win).

Cries of elitism is just another form of anti-intellectualism.

I totally disagree. The Labour membership voted 63% for remain. The extremely europhilic Liberal Democrats voted 70%. Labour were never - not under Corbyn, nor under anyone else - going to vote by a bigger degree than the LDs for remain. Given that, that 63% is honestly quite a good return on what is meant to be a party for the working classes. Corbyn, IMO, did his job.

Corbyn could have perhaps defended immigration a bit more, but it's becoming increasingly clear that such a message is toxic to the people that Labour needs to return to the party into power. Had Corbyn done this, he'd have faced a different backlash from the same MPs that he's "ruining the party's electability". Basically, I thought Corbyn was both effective and prudent in his campaigning.

It wasn't under Corbyn's leadership that Labour started losing members to UKIP (and perhaps Tories). New Labour were clearly pro-immigration and used migrants economically, but never really humanised or defended them. It allowed UKIP and various newspapers to chip away at the working classes, scapegoating and then turning them against migrants. That is, Labour collectively failed to tackle anti-immigration/racism in the working classes whilst they were in power. It wasn't like Corbyn should have been expected to, in a few weeks, win back those that Labour lost. It's totally unrealistic.

The referendum was lost in the way Tory voters voted. 58% for leave.

After moving to Labour for a bit, I am now back with the Liberals. LDs have always been the most socially progressive, and that's what we need right now to combat the rising xenophobia and far-right sentiment.

 

[ncurd]

J'nuh where did you get 70% of our supporters voted leave number?

That just sounds inherently wrong why anyone would support the Lib Dems a party that could change its symbol to European flag we are so pro it and be anti-EU completely baffles me.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

He said 70% voted remain, didn't he?

 

[j'nuh]

http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

He said 70% voted remain, didn't he?

Yeah this. My point was that Labour voted 63% remain and LDs 70%, and LDs are much more europhilic than Labour, so I'm not sure how much more Corbyn could have personally improved on that 63% return.

If anything, getting Labour to within 7 percent of LDs should be seen as some kind of achievement.

 

[ncurd]

He said 70% voted remain, didn't he?

My mistake in writing only 70% remain is shocking for lib dems and 75% for green (although don't think they are quite as prousing European as us).

J'nuh I still think both parties needed to do way better in their core support. The tories were always going to do relatively badly it's always been clear their support is against the EU.

 

[j'nuh]

Someone on FB put together an album of some of the personal stories coming out of post-referendum UK. This is the attitude that leave has emboldened. It's totally depressing. Here's 5 (there are more than 100):

My mistake in writing only 70% remain is shocking for lib dems and 75% for green (although don't think they are quite as prousing European as us).

J'nuh I still think both parties needed to do way better in their core support. The tories were always going to do relatively badly it's always been clear their support is against the EU.

I don't know. I don't think there's much Corbyn could do to convince poor, ex-industrial, overwhelmingly Labour towns and cities like Bradford (in fact, all of Yorkshire apart from Leeds), Sunderland and Newcastle etc. They were always going to stop him from achieving significantly better than 63%. These people are suffering and are vulnerable to being taken in by promises of change (even if they are false). See the mood of these people (worth noting that Burnley is a ridiculous 63% economically inactive): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq3qdX2TGps

 

[Peat]

I don't know. I don't think there's much Corbyn could do to convince poor, ex-industrial, overwhelmingly Labour towns and cities like Bradford (in fact, all of Yorkshire apart from Leeds), Sunderland and Newcastle etc. They were always going to stop him from achieving significantly better than 63%. These people are suffering and are vulnerable to being taken in by promises of change (even if they are false). See the mood of these people (worth noting that Burnley is a ridiculous 63% economically inactive): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oq3qdX2TGps

And ironically they're going to be the ones suffering most.

 

[McTallshort]

And ironically they're going to be the ones suffering most.

From what? The EU moving manufacturing to Slovakia? Oh wait....

 

[ncurd]

From what? The EU moving manufacturing to Slovakia? Oh wait....

ression = job losses usually for the lowest paid workers

It was agreed by both sides we would happen if we voted to leave (and no the markets haven't rallied that well). Just the Leave campaign said we'd come out smelling of roses on the other side and we could. But alot of people will suffer whilst it all occurs.

 

[McTallshort]

ression = job losses usually for the lowest paid workers

It was agreed by both sides we would happen if we voted to leave (and no the markets haven't rallied that well). Just the Leave campaign said we'd come out smelling of roses on the other side and we could. But alot of people will suffer whilst it all occurs.

And these people where benefiting from being in the EU? And no one knows yet what will happen....of course if everyone just sits around whining about the result we will lose jobs and all the other doom laden warnings Osborne gave. It almost feels like people want the country to go to the wall.

 

[Bee]

It would depend on the situation I suppose would I want a career politician who has gone from prep school to private school to top university to political understudy to prime minister deciding what's best for working class people in the east Midlands? Honestly no but the sad fact is ordinary people don't become cabinet ministers anymore in any political party so that's probably where elitism comes in to people's minds.

After a weekend away with the family (Mrs tall short hasn't been deported yet) I have reflected a lot on what's happening and I put it down to 2 things: the first is a genuine indifference to the EU from everyone including most alarmingly organisations such as the BBC. I do not remember the last time the BBC or anyone else did an EU special on legislation being passed that week in Brussels (or Strasbourg) yet a politician breaks a finger nail in Westminster and the press and media wet their pants. The fact is we as a nation just don't consider the EU that important, we know there is a load more regulation at work to understand, we know there are lots of people working for us with unpronounceable surnames and we know we pay in lots of money in to it but really what's the point? Again no one no knows or no one wants to tell us. And the second thing is protest. Lots of people I work etc just don't like the ruling elite and when someone like Tony Blair says vote for this most people think on your bike mate. For better or worse the decision is made and we need to make the best of it.

As for juh whinging on about the older generation has screwing over his generation cry me a ****ing river mate, when I left school in 1991 it coincided with nearly all the heavy industry being wiped out in the east Midlands, 100 of years of traditional gone in the space of a few years. Every generation has challenges to face why should you feel immune to that.

I'm 100% in for the EU having to re-think itself and work on transparency, explaining itself and moving towards the people.
But unfortunately, Brussels often is being blamed (very much here in Germany as well) for ludicrous laws and regulations, although they often come from the countries itself. But nobody bothers to explain.

 

[ncurd]

And these people where benefiting from being in the EU? And no one knows yet what will happen....of course if everyone just sits around whining about the result we will lose jobs and all the other doom laden warnings Osborne gave. It almost feels like people want the country to go to the wall.

They had jobs at least Infact lowest unemployment figures in quite some time.

Did or did not the pound have its sharpest fall since WW2?

I don't want this country to go to the wall but I'm not committing racist acts in the streets and still working hard at my job. What more can I do?

I'm not going to change my mind that this decision will have disastrous short term effects on normal working people just because most of people who voted thought it wouldnt happen or are happy to go through that pain.

 

[McTallshort]

I'm 100% in for the EU having to re-think itself and work on transparency, explaining itself and moving towards the people.
But unfortunately, Brussels often is being blamed (very much here in Germany as well) for ludicrous laws and regulations, although they often come from the countries itself. But nobody bothers to explain.

And they have themselves to blame, sorry but any political entity must engage with public and press there was often a feeling that the attitude was " this is what we are telling you to do tough" when perhaps it was just the daily mail perception but no one got a different one to compare.

 

[McTallshort]

They had jobs at least Infact lowest unemployment figures in quite some time.

Did or did not the pound have its sharpest fall since WW2?

I don't want this country to go to the wall but I'm committing racist acts in the streets and still working hard at my job. What more can I do?

I'm not going to change.my mind that this decision will have disastrous short term effects on normal working people just because most of people who voted thought it would happen or are happy to go through that pain.

You might want to edit that....

 

[ncurd]

You might want to edit that....

Thanks for catching that one.