A Political Thread

[TRF_Olyy]

Weren't the protests against the Iraq war the biggest protests in history?

 

[Amiga500]

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/06/03/remembering-iraq

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...t-at-the-time-we-did-support-it-10300854.html

Good links - can't argue with them.

I assumed that with the scale of the protests and the resignation of Robin Cook that it very much was a majority against.

I certainly remember being very much against it - aware of two things:
- the evidence was a load of crap
- revolution should come from within, not at the behest of a foreign state

Hussein was a bad man, no question. But the power vacuum led to ISIS and that is still an unsolved problem.

 

[die_mole]

Us police are getting to live out their fantasy of dressing up as soldiers and they don't face the chance of death cause the people they are up against have what, plastic water bottles? They know they don't have the restraint of law but the people they are going up against do.

these cowards who are too afraid, too stupid, or not fit enough to go to war (which I don't agree with at all) are getting their kicks beating up unarmed people here at home. If you feel that black people wanting freedom of mind it taking something from you, you are the problem.

 

[die_mole]

Good links - can't argue with them.

I assumed that with the scale of the protests and the resignation of Robin Cook that it very much was a majority against.

I certainly remember being very much against it - aware of two things:
- the evidence was a load of crap
- revolution should come from within, not at the behest of a foreign state

Hussein was a bad man, no question. But the power vacuum led to ISIS and that is still an unsolved problem.

I think it'd hard to imagine that you are in the minority when you are right on something. Especially when looking at an issue retrospectively.

 

[Amiga500]

My best mates family whenever I went round called me Gary's white n#$%@r.

If your happy to turn a blind eye to the continued and unchecked shenanigans of the police in the US, as per

It's all bull a crap cop went over the top killed a crook without need , instead of letting justice take its course US has riots.

then your best mates family were better than Nostradamus!

 

[Amiga500]

Weren't the protests against the Iraq war the biggest protests in history?

I thought they were - hence my assumption that majority of opinion was against war.

 

[Amiga500]

I think it'd hard to imagine that you are in the minority when you are right on something. Especially when looking at an issue retrospectively.

Well, yeah - more like I was aware of the scale of the demos against - I never realised there was such hidden counter balance for the war.

 

[ncurd]

Weren't the protests against the Iraq war the biggest protests in history?

I thought they were - hence my assumption that majority of opinion was against war.

Wikipedia claims so with police estimates roughly at 750k (for London) whereas the peoples vote march last year was circa 400k. Although like a lot of these things figure are in dispute and it's alot easier to fact check these things than in 2003.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

I think possibly the saddest thing in all of this (besides the murder of course) is that whilst virtually everyone is in agreement that this was a murder, and still a consensus (whilst somewhat less resounding) that there is a systemic race issue in the US, the nature of the rioting and the police response to it has drawn lines in the sand that few people seem willing to cross.

The BLM movement is something that every reasonable person should agree on, but the mere fact that it will now be associated with the death and destruction of innocent civilians lives and livelihoods will likely push away the people it needs to win over to achieve change...

The adoption of the ACAB mantra fundementally relies on the prejudices that the BLM movement accuses the police force of making it a lot harder to get on board with... It is literally fighting hate and unfair sterotypes with hate and unfair sterotypes. Obviously that doesn't represent the entire movement, but the world often only listens to those with the loudest, most controversial voice... All cops are not bad people, in the same way that all black people aren't gangbangers, all Mexicans aren't drug dealers, all middle Eastern people aren't terrorists. Hate does not cure hate.

The US has proved over the past few years that there is little attitude for bipartisanship, people seem to like their lines in the sand. There is no moment taken for introspection on any side and it seems that any concession is just seen as a loss rather than scrutiny and self criticism as the cornerstone of a successful society, and a successful democracy.

This needs to be done right. You can't fight for your fellow citizen by destroying your fellow citizen's livelihood... That's not how it works. Go to the voting booth and vote in numbers... That's how you achieve real change in a democracy, not by burning business and making hurting the people you are supposed to be fighting for.

The reason protests rarely achieve change in a democracy is that if you win an election, that mandate always supercedes a protest. That's the reality of a democracy... Be vocal, get people on side and make a change at the voting booth. As Killer Mike said, "beat up the politicians in the voting booth", don't burn down your own house because you're angry.

Hong Kongers don't have the privilege of being able to exercise their democratic rights to get out of their situation but they're not destroying their fellow Hong Kongers livelihoods... And the international community has got behind them (I wish it was more) and will hopefully have an impact as a result. I know it's not the same but the Hong Kongers are essentially about to become part of a dictatorship and have probably garnered more international support from those who matter to effect change without burning their own house to the ground...

Anyway, rant over...

 

[duncanb]

If your happy to turn a blind eye to the continued and unchecked shenanigans of the police in the US, as per



then your best mates family were better than Nostradamus!

when did I wish to turn a blind eye oh forgot , the fount of all knowledge knows as.
I find it hard that you are not some sort of leader as your correct knowing of everything is outstanding compared other mere mortals.
I could tell you something else about my history that will make you hate me even more.
But I'll save that for when there is a topic relevant to my history .
I look forward to that.
I would not add you to ignore list because it's so much fun debating with a person who knows all.

 

[Amiga500]

That's not how it works. Go to the voting booth and vote in numbers... That's how you achieve real change in a democracy, not by burning business and making hurting the people you are supposed to be fighting for.

Aye dead on.

Cabinets in the UK and Administrations in the US will continue to serve their sponsors interests first, their interests second, and their electorates interests a very distant last.

Political parties are always bleating on about "vote for change" - what changes? Sweet f**k all squared. Multinationals have been dodging tax for how many governments now? What is done about it?


If politicians actually wanted people to protest peacefully - then they'd f**king do well to act on the concerns raised by peaceful protests.

 

[Amiga500]

when did I wish to turn a blind eye oh forgot , the fount of all knowledge knows as.

I even quoted your line back at you. Not surprising its beyond a policeman to grasp.

They probably need to be "highly trained" ( ) to understand the justice system frequently doesn't work - and almost always doesn't work in the instance of police transgressions in the USA.

 

[duncanb]

I even quoted your line back at you. Not surprising its beyond a policeman to grasp.

They probably need to be "highly trained" ( ) to understand the justice system frequently doesn't work - and almost always doesn't work in the instance of police transgressions in the USA.

unfortunately I'm quoting UK 1980s miners strike through to Poll tax riots.
You can twist as much as you wish,
So ever been in a riot one side or another ?
Ever been undercover one side or another?
Ever been out your bedroom ?

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Aye dead on.

Cabinets in the UK and Administrations in the US will continue to serve their sponsors interests first, their interests second, and their electorates interests a very distant last.

Political parties are always bleating on about "vote for change" - what changes? Sweet f**k all squared. Multinationals have been dodging tax for how many governments now? What is done about it?


If politicians actually wanted people to protest peacefully - then they'd f**king do well to act on the concerns raised by peaceful protests.

And burning ones own house down changes that how?

The sad reality is that if you have no faith in the political elite, the only way to change that is a new political class, and unless you have a civil war the only other way to really achieve that is through the democratic process.

I agree with you that the public probably aren't the first point of concern for a lot of administrations... But the reality is that trump or biden will still win this autumn, because rioting is very rarely followed up by real electoral change.
Rioting, especially in the US almost always results in the two sides cementing themselves more than ever. Trump supporters will likely see this as an attack on themselves, and support trump ever more avidly...
That's the sad reality, this doesn't end the divide in the US...
To achieve long lasting and positive change the, there has to be consensus and a centre ground... The rioting just seems to be pushing people further apart as a result of a gross injustice that should be bringing people together against a clear race issue in the USA and in the justice system.

We often jump to declare people as enemies, when especially in the case of the demonization of the BLM movement as a wholly negative force by some in the USA, and the ACAB mantra, its is unfair and untrue. For years the US has been growing apart and the appetite for bipartisanship disapearing every day.

We can always achieve change together... But it is undeniable that the rioting and looting is pushing people apart...

 

[Al Bangor]

America's power comes from it's money and it's military.
While they're still pumping trillions into their military, and while wallstreet is still a thing, they'll still be top dog - despite whichever loon is in the whitehouse and whatever is happening on the streets.
I don't claim to know anything about the stock market/economics, but the dow jones had it's all time peak in Feb this year, and is currently at a level with late 2017 (which is higher than ever before that point).

If big companies start flooding out of America then maybe they'll dip - but I can't see it.
The people on the street are just ants compared to the trillions in play in the money game, and that's what buys you power and influence on the world stage.

You nailed it Olyy.

 

[Al Bangor]

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Except he wouldn't be on the balcony, he is fiddling underground.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The situation in America is descending rapidly,

Unarmed man shot and killed last night by National Guard - they thought someone was shooting at them so returned fire into the crowd....turns out the gunshots were the local Police firing into the air to try and disperse the crowds.
Multiple videos of police directly shooting tear gas canisters are protesters heads, rubber bullets aimed directly at peoples heads.
It's a miracle there's only been 5 deaths, tbh.

 

[ncurd]

The situation in America is descending rapidly,

Unarmed man shot and killed last night by National Guard - they thought someone was shooting at them so returned fire into the crowd....turns out the gunshots were the local Police firing into the air to try and disperse the crowds.
Multiple videos of police directly shooting tear gas canisters are protesters heads, rubber bullets aimed directly at peoples heads.
It's a miracle there's only been 5 deaths, tbh.

Trump's talking about sending in the military....has anyone heard of deescalation before?

I'm Chopin like a lot of riots they will figuratively burn out. But the tacticts being used just show how crazy the policing system is in the USA.