Afrikaans translation please

[smartcooky]

I need someone to translate the following into Afrikaans. I need a real Afrikaans speaker, i.e. NO Google translations please.

[TEXTAREA]A ruck is a phase of play where one or more players from each team, who are on their feet, in physical contact, close around the ball on the ground. Open play has ended.[/TEXTAREA]

We believe we have found an error in the official translation of the definition of a Ruck in Afrikaans iRB laws, which states

[TEXTAREA]’n Losskrum is ’n fase van die spel waar een of meer spelers van elke span wat op hulle voete is, in fisieke kontak met mekaar naby die bal op die grond is. Algemene spel is beëindig.[/TEXTAREA]

Particularly, we think the use of the term "close around" in the English version has not been translated correctly. It does not mean "close to" or "near", it means "surround". My little understanding of Afrikanns is that the phrase "naby die bal op die ground is" means "near the ball on the ground"

If you like, substitute :"surround" for "close around" in the definition, then translate that.

For this whose first language is not English...

"CLOSE" as in "nearby" is pronouncedwith a hard "s" as in "gross"
"CLOSE" as in "surround" is pronounced with a soft "s" or "z" as in "rose"

 

[TRF_heineken]

I need someone to translate the following into Afrikaans. I need a real Afrikaans speaker, i.e. NO Google translations please.

[TEXTAREA]A ruck is a phase of play where one or more players from each team, who are on their feet, in physical contact, close around the ball on the ground. Open play has ended.[/TEXTAREA]

We believe we have found an error in the official translation of the definition of a Ruck in Afrikaans iRB laws, which states

[TEXTAREA]’n Losskrum is ’n fase van die spel waar een of meer spelers van elke span wat op hulle voete is, in fisieke kontak met mekaar naby die bal op die grond is. Algemene spel is beëindig.[/TEXTAREA]

Particularly, we think the use of the term "close around" in the English version has not been translated correctly. It does not mean "close to" or "near", it means "surround". My little understanding of Afrikanns is that the phrase "naby die bal op die ground is" means "near the ball on the ground"

If you like, substitute :"surround" for "close around" in the definition, then translate that.

For this whose first language is not English...

"CLOSE" as in "nearby" is pronouncedwith a hard "s" as in "gross"
"CLOSE" as in "surround" is pronounced with a soft "s" or "z" as in "rose"

Cooky, the wording seems fine to me, if you want an afrikaans word for surround, then you should rather use the word "Rondom". I checked it, and "rondom" would work better as it will give the impression that the players very close to the ball if not over it. "Naby" gives the impression that the player is nearby, but not so close.

If there are any other queries like this, give me a shout. If I can't assist then my mother will definitely be able to help as she has a master's degree in both Afrikaans and English.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

It is a little grey, yes in that if you took it to court a player could say he was in fact near the ball.

I would use the word 'oor' as in 'over' or add 'bo' (up but also above); 'bo-oor' or you can make use of 'naby-oor' (close over the ball- though you'd need to have a freakish body to be over the ball but not close to it so my personal preference would be just 'oor') to convey that the players need to be in contact over the ball rather than beside it. Maybe it's not 100% for English but I do think it'd make the Afrikaans translation more accurate;

’n Losskrum is ’n fase van die spel waar een of meer spelers van elke span wat op hulle voete is, in fisieke kontak met mekaar oor die bal op die grond is. Algemene spel is beëindig.

 

[smartcooky]

Ok, so as you understand the Law definition as written in Afrikaans, you are happy that it is a good translation of the English version and it is clear that it means the players are "closing around" the ball, not merely in "close proximity" to the ball?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Ok, so as you understand the Law definition as written in Afrikaans, you are happy that it is a good translation of the English version and it is clear that it means the players are "closing around" the ball, not merely in "close proximity" to the ball?

I would say it's a perfectly good translation with the only possible misconception being the one you mentioned if argued to the letter but it does make sense, yes.The most literal translation of close around if you want perfect meaning would be 'naby om'.

 

[smartcooky]

It is a little grey, yes in that if you took it to court a player could say he was in fact near the ball.

I would use the word 'oor' as in 'over' or add 'bo' (up but also above); 'bo-oor' or you can make use of 'naby-oor' (close over the ball- though you'd need to have a freakish body to be over the ball but not close to it so my personal preference would be just 'oor') to convey that the players need to be in contact over the ball rather than beside it. Maybe it's not 100% for English but I do think it'd make the Afrikaans translation more accurate;

’n Losskrum is ’n fase van die spel waar een of meer spelers van elke span wat op hulle voete is, in fisieke kontak met mekaar oor die bal op die grond is. Algemene spel is beëindig.

so,

naby die bal op die grond is" means "close to the ball on the ground"

oor die bal op die grond is" means "over the ball on the ground"

It seems "close around" does not have a direct translation into Afrikaans then. How would you say "We tried to close around the enemy camp"

ETA: Our posts crossed

You are suggesting...

[TEXTAREA]"’n Losskrum is ’n fase van die spel waar een of meer spelers van elke span wat op hulle voete is, in fisieke kontak met mekaar naby om die bal op die grond is. Algemene spel is beëindig.[/TEXTAREA]

...is the most accurate?

 

[TRF_heineken]

so,

naby die bal op die grond is" means "close to the ball on the ground"

oor die bal op die grond is" means "over the ball on the ground"

It seems "close around" does not have a direct translation into Afrikaans then. How would you say "We tried to close around the enemy camp"

ETA: Our posts crossed

You are suggesting...

[TEXTAREA]"’n Losskrum is ’n fase van die spel waar een of meer spelers van elke span wat op hulle voete is, in fisieke kontak met mekaar naby om die bal op die grond is. Algemene spel is beëindig.[/TEXTAREA]

...is the most accurate?

just using the word "om" doesn't sound right. I would rather go for the word "Rondom" which is the direct translation for "surround". Rondom is a more collective word, as it could be seen as close-by, surround, over, above...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

just using the word "om" doesn't sound right. I would rather go for the word "Rondom" which is the direct translation for "surround". Rondom is a more collective word, as it could be seen as close-by, surround, over, above...

No, a direct translation for 'surround' would be 'omring' or 'omkring' depending on the context. Though I do agree 'rondom' is more collective than just 'om' personally I still feel 'naby-om' is more descriptive and precise even if it's a word not in common use as 'rondom' does not give any indication of distance. 'Naby, rondom' does go around this but 'naby-om' is the word I'd use (shorter and does not require an additional comma and break in sentence) but that is splitting hairs (case of a preference for 'it is' over 'it's') and 'naby, rondom' would be more... modern if you want to go that route.

 

[smartcooky]

You two do understand that in English, "close" has two different meanings depending on how it is pronounced?

"Close" (rhyming with "dose") means to be near to, nearby or in the proximity of as in "close to the edge"

"Close" (rhyming with "doze") means to shut or block as in "close the door"

However, in the Law Definition they use the term "close around" and that is an "idiom" in the English language which means "to move to surround someone or something"

So, I if were to paraphrase the wording of the definition accordingly, it would be worded like this


[TEXTAREA]A ruck is a phase of play where one or more players from each team, who are on their feet, in physical contact, move to surround the ball on the ground. Open play has ended.
[/TEXTAREA]

How does that affect you translation?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

How does that affect you translation?

Well, I didn't read it as such even though I do know the two seperate meanings. Maybe because I saw the Afrikaans translation being 'naby'. Hein?

Having a look at the translation again and thouroughly I'd add something else; you have to clarify that the ball is on the ground and not the players;

’n Losskrum is ’n fase van die spel waar een of meer spelers van elke span wat op hulle voete is, in fisieke kontak is met mekaar naby die bal wat op die grond is. Algemene spel is beëindig.

IE 'close around the ball THAT IS on the ground' otherwise it reads a tad confusing in Afrikaans although common sense tells you it's the ball that's on the ground.

'Naby' is a tad grey, yes...

Hein, wat dink jy? '... rondom en oor die bal..' of '... toe oor/rondom die bal..'?. Ek kan nie dink aan een frase wat op sy eie die bedoeling, soos Cooky dit daar het met 'close around', volkome beskryf nie, kan jy?

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well, I didn't read it as such. Hein?

Having a look at the translation again and thouroughly I'd add something else; you have to clarify that the ball is on the ground and not the players;


IE 'close around the ball THAT IS on the ground' otherwise it reads a tad confusing in Afrikaans although common sense tells you it's the ball that's on the ground.

'Naby' is a tad grey, yes...

Hein, wat dink jy? '... rondom en oor die bal..' of '... toe oor/rondom die bal..'?. Ek kan nie dink aan een frase wat op sy eie die bedoeling, soos Cooky dit daar het met 'close around', volkome beskryf nie, kan jy?

That's how I interpreted it the first time.

Naby or Rondom could be used.

in fisieke kontak is met mekaar naby die bal wat op die grond is

- I would interpret it as the players are close-by as in "dose"

in fisieke kontak is met mekaar rondom die bal wat op die grond is

- I would interpret it as the players are surrounding the ball.

I think if you want to get really technical on this issue, we could elaborate the wording so that it says something along the lines of:

’n Losskrum is ’n fase van die spel waar een of meer spelers van elke span wat op hulle voete is, in fisieke kontak is met mekaar naby of rondom die bal wat op die grond is. Algemene spel is beëindig.

Me personally wouldn't use the word naby, as it isn't as conclusive as rondom. as for words like naby-om and om, it's just not proper Afrikaans to use when wording something like a law or a rule. When I had a subject called "the interpretation of statutes", they used very high-up Afrikaans words, and the purpose is that those words cover both the textual and contextual aspects regarding the act or rule.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Fair enough though you'd say 'naby en rondom' or 'naby, rondom' rather than 'naby of rondom' to mean a player must satisfy both conditions rather than just one of them seperately surely?

 

[smartcooky]

OK, it looks like there is no direct equivalent to the English idiom "close around" in Afrikaans, and that you simply use "surround"


Thanks for the help guys.